Legacy died while driving, now wont start

[Jeremie]

Swapped coils on cyl 2 & 4, mis fire stayed at cylinder 2. Not the coils. 
 

With the engine running - aren’t you able to put a screwdriver on top of the fuel injector and other end against your ear and be able to hear a ticking or pulsing?

[Tehnation]

So you got it to start with a new battery, but now it just runs like crap and you have misfires on cylinder 2? I would swap the injectors next. Misfire is either fuel, spark or air (leak somewhere). Its not spark, I would try fuel next. 

Inspect your oil and coolant, make sure nothing is contaminated ie blown head gasket. 

Check your grounds for the car. (not sure if i said that already)

Did you inspect or replace the spark plug? 

The screwdriver thing is a thing but I would just swap them. I don't have the ear for those kind of things. Its also a trick I wouldn't try to learn on the fly without some guidance. 

[Jeremie]

Correct. 

Oil and coolant both looked ok and not contaminated. 

I have not done anything with the grounds on the car as of yet - but just got all the supplies together to go thru and re-do all the grounds. 

Spark plugs were replaced maybe 200 miles ago. I should have, but did not pull out the #2 plug last night when I was swapping coils. 

I'll look into swapping injectors next. 

 

Thank you!

[Tehnation]

Did you confirm where you heard the hissing sound? So new plugs and then the issue started happening? You double check those plugs/pins for the coil packs? Maybe even get a multimeter or some kind of continuity tester so you can test the connector to make sure its getting power. 

Hmmm, would the intake manifold to tgv gasket for a single cylinder cause misfire codes? Or does it normally just register as a vacuum leak or horrible fuel trims? 

What about timing? Timing goes off and car doesn't start, are there conditions where it will start and run like crap? I don't think so actually. If it starts can we assume the timing is fine? 

If your spark and fuel are good, then ..... better brace for impact, things might get ugly! Compression and or leakdown test might be needed!  New plugs then bad things.... hopefully you didn't crack the head from overtightening. I heard thats a thing with the subaru heads, never seen it in person but I have read about that. 

 

[Tehnation]

Actually I may have done that.... my head cracked not sure if it was from the spark plug but coolant was flowing into my oil so thats how I knew, but you said your oil and coolant look good. 

[Jeremie]

There was a total of 375 miles between changing the plugs and the car breaking down. Car was actually running a lot better after the plug change. When it broke down there was zero indication beforehand something was about to happen. 

I didn't confirm the hissing sound at all. I only hear it when the car is running at idle right around the alternator, as if it is the alternator itself. Which I do plan on getting the alternator tested since having all these battery issues. 

One thing that did kind of confuse me at the time - I checked the oil and it appeared to be 1/2 qt overfilled. Just after checking it the car started and idled. Checked the oil again after shutting it back off and oil level was perfect. It was as if I had just done an oil change and not yet started it to do the pressure check, like oil had not gone into the filter yet. 

Going to try swapping fuel injectors tonight, see if that creates any change. And do have the compression test kit, on the to do list as well. 

 

 

[Max Capacity]

The oil level on these cars always reads high if you just pull the stick, You need to loosen the oil fill cap, maybe pull the dip stick. Then come back a few minutes later and check the oil. In all the years I've owned these cars, since my 98GT wagon, they are the worst car to check the oil on.

 

A few months back, I would drive the wagon into the new garage after the GF left for work, I found I could loosen the oil fill cap and walk away for a few hours. Then come and pull the stick and get a true reading.  It has something to do with a boxer engine. Both boxers on the twin cylinder lawn mowers do the same thing.

 

I just came in from checking the wagon's oil in its new normal outside spot next to the garage. I parked it there Wednesday. 5 days later, today, I loosened the oil fill cap late morning, at 5PM I pulled the dip stick, it was about 2" above full. I put the stick back in, at 6PM pulled the stick and found it slightly below full.

[ashwinearl]

Just chiming in regardin the battery going dead all of a sudden. Mine did something similar recently. I drove it Thursday, from the shop no less getting tires put on. Didn't drive again until Sunday morning. Turned the key, a few lights then nothing.  It was at under 4V in the car, when I took it out it was at 6V. Rather then try to charge it, I went new battery as this was over 3 years old.

It too has been much hotter than normal. And have heard/read that high heat can just take a battery over the edge.  

Also one of your pictures shows the blue T of death. I think someone else recommended the Company 23 barbed T. I highly recommend it. 

I've also seen smoke machine prices have come down a lot. There are some on Amazon in the hundred range that look like they'd be a lot of help for you tracking down gremlins. This one  and this one are ones I was looking at.

 

[Jeremie]

Thanks guys. 

@Max Capacityglad it wasn't just me. 

@ashwinearlit certainly has been pretty hot and I did not know any of the history on the battery. And I was actually on amazon at the same time looking at smoke machines. From what I've read they seem decent enough and can be a big help with tracking down my issues. 

[Max Capacity]

About that brass T, you can buy them or make one with pieces from most hardware stores and some teflon tape.  Attached is the T I made for for the stumble between 2400-3000rpm so the fuel pressure reg gets a constant signal, instead of just from intake runner #4.

[Jeremie]

Good to know, thank you. All these little quirks…

 

So I did swap the injectors on 2 & 4, started the car up and it felt a little different. Was still running rough, but not as bad. Between 2200-3k rpm the roughness goes away until about 3500k cel started flashing. Again stopped once I let off the throttle. Feel a little excited, ran the codes and got….. P0302 again . So the misfire has now stayed at cyl 2 with coil change and injector change. 
 

running out of test here, but I believe compression test is probably next. 
(Left injector was #2, right was #4 prior to swapping)

[Tehnation]

Are you clearing the codes before swapping things? 

[Jeremie]

Yes I am

[Tehnation]

You try spraying some start fluid or something around that cylinder intake? Maybe an intake manifold gasket is shot?  Did you test the voltage of the system when running to see if your alternator is putting out enough juice? Cylinder 2 is what, front driver side? What else can go wrong... you got spark plug, coilpack, injector, intake gaskets....tgv? 

Anyone know if tgvs cause misfire codes when malfunctioning? I figure it would be both 2 and 4 cause they are attached, but I have long deleted my tgvs so not sure how they work anymore. 

Hopefully you didn't overboost yourself into #ynansb. Hate to say but a compression test is a must if you can't get rid of the misfire, maybe cracked a ringland. 

[Max Capacity]

Were the new spark plugs, NGK's bought from a trusted place ?  There are some counterfeit parts out there.

 

Yes #2 is front drivers side.

 

Does your car have the larger orange o-rings at the plastic intake manifold to TGV's, The smaller OEM black one's are known to leak. 05's came with small black ones.

[Jeremie]

Yes, NGKs from oriellys 

 

What is the tgv?

[Max Capacity]

Tumble generating valves, they are at the end of the black plastic intake manifold and the heads.  There is a sensor and a motor on either end of them.

1st photo, front drivers side, behind AC compressor. that's the sensor, which is the same as the throttle position sensor on the throttle body.

2nd, zone in, and you'll see the tab on the orange o-ring at the bottom end of #2 intake runner, where it bolts to TGV's.

In photo 1 the lockwire on fuel line was the fix for the leaking fuel line in cold temps, below 20F

In #2 at the right lower side about half down the photo, you'll see two bolt heads, that's the ground for the ECU, I think. 

 

[Jeremie]

Thanks for the picture, would never had guessed that's what that was. 

In your second picture, I'm not quite able to zoom in and find an orange tab. But I do recall seeing that sensor on the passenger side and also saw those two bolt heads last night when struggling with the #4 injector. 

Using your 1st pic for reference, is the orange o ring where that sensor mounts to the intake runner? 

[Max Capacity]

Yes. The o-ring is at that joint, black plastic manifold to TGV's under it.  Look above #2 yellow injector, you'll see a small orange tab.

 

That sensor, in photo, is mounted to the end of the TGV.

[Tehnation]

 I would swap and inspect the plugs as well cause.... you never know! 

[Jeremie]

@Max CapacityOk, I do see that little orange tab now. So that tab would be orange if the gasket has been replaced and black if it has not? I'll have to check when I get home and see what color it is. 

 

@TehnationFigured I would have to pull all the plugs for the compression test and would be a good time to inspect the plugs and swap around as needed. Hopefully tonight I will atleast get all set up to run the compression test. 

[Bax004]

On 7/17/2022 at 7:17 PM, Jeremie said:

Update 

 

went thru all the fuses both inside and under the hood, not a single one blown. Dropped in a new battery and car maybe and extra second or two of cranking, but it started and idles. I only let it run a couple of seconds before turning off, it’s idling pretty rough. Engine is shaking. I can hear a hissing, but not finding any vacuum leaks or disconnected lines. Almost sounds like the hissing is coming from the alternator (next on the list to check out anyways). In park and neutral, slowly raising the idle I get a flashing CEL at 3k rpm but goes away if I let off and rpm’s go down. Only code I pull is a pending P0302. When rpm’s did hit 3k, there was a rattle that started. I’ve heard that noise before, usually when car was in higher rpm’s - usually followed with P0244. When the car initially broke down merging on the freeway and I realized transmission wasn’t shifting from 2nd to 3rd I heard the same noise before letting off the gas (had pulled over and car died back then). 
 

Try swapping cylinder 2 ignition coil with another cylinder and see if the misfire moves. If that doesn’t give you anything then do the same test with the spark plug from cylinder 2. 
 

I just saw you already swapped coils and replaced plugs. I would still say do the spark plug swap just for shits and giggles. If that doesn’t result in anything then I would do compression and leak down tests. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Bax004

[Jeremie]

The o-ring gasket we were talking about is orange, so should be good there. 
 

I think it’s safe to say we found the cause of the mis-fire, now I’m afraid to ask what could have caused this? I’ve only pulled the plugs from 2 & 4, you can see why I stopped. The ground and center electrode on 2 are practically touching.
 

There’s a total of 375 miles on the plugs. I checked the gaps when they went in (to make sure) and they were all within spec. When the car broke down there was well under 1/4 tank of gas, low enough the gas light was just about to come on. I was making a hard left turn onto a freeway on ramp, maybe 20 ish thru 3/4 of the turn which I then floored it coming out of the turn (car coming the other direction using the same merge, I would’ve had em). As soon as the turn straightened out is when is when everything went to shit and I stopped. 
 

my theory, correct if im wrong, although very rare and unlikely, I possibly sucked up air in the gas tank which shot into cyl 2 and caused some sort of detonation…..

 

[Bax004]

9 minutes ago, Jeremie said:

The o-ring gasket we were talking about is orange, so should be good there. 
 

I think it’s safe to say we found the cause of the mis-fire, now I’m afraid to ask what could have caused this? I’ve only pulled the plugs from 2 & 4, you can see why I stopped. The ground and center electrode on 2 are practically touching.
 

There’s a total of 375 miles on the plugs. I checked the gaps when they went in (to make sure) and they were all within spec. When the car broke down there was well under 1/4 tank of gas, low enough the gas light was just about to come on. I was making a hard left turn onto a freeway on ramp, maybe 20 ish thru 3/4 of the turn which I then floored it coming out of the turn (car coming the other direction using the same merge, I would’ve had em). As soon as the turn straightened out is when is when everything went to shit and I stopped. 
 

my theory, correct if im wrong, although very rare and unlikely, I possibly sucked up air in the gas tank which shot into cyl 2 and caused some sort of detonation…..

 

I’m not sure what the cause would be, it could’ve been dropped before and re-gaped to make it look like it wasn’t damaged and doing so could’ve weakened the metal and caused it to close up while under load. But I would definitely replace it with a brand new one just to have more confidence. Good find! And that wasn’t saying you dropped it, I was saying it could’ve been dropped by someone at the store or someone previously bought and returned it.

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Bax004

[JF1GG29]

Yikes. Looks like it's been beat on. Did it look like that when you put it in? You should do a compression and leakdown test. I can't imagine too many scenarios that don't suck with a spark plug that looks like that.