Subaru E-Boxer

[ehsnils]

They are now marketing the hybrid Forester and XV here called E-Boxer.

 

 

Hybrid, the Subaru way

 

Welcome to e-BOXER. Subaru’s new-generation power unit system that combines Motor Assist with two of Subaru’s core technologies: Boxer engine and Symmetrical - All Wheel Drive (S‑AWD).

It takes ‘what makes a Subaru, a Subaru’ to the next level. The new e‑BOXER range inherits the performance of low centre of gravity with the poise and efficiency of the proven S‑AWD system.

Its compact, yet powerful motor is placed near the vehicle’s centre of gravity, while the battery and other components are arranged above the rear axle.

With even lower centre of gravity and better-balanced front/rear vehicle weight distribution than our petrol model, the new e‑BOXER delivers more driving efficiency and responsive handling, with no sacrifice to safety.

By enhancing hybrid technology and introducing it at the core of Subaru DNA, with Motor Assist, you get the best of both worlds.

Which is also better for today’s world.

 

 

https://www.subaru.eu/e-boxer

[ehsnils]

A Danish review with English subtitles:

 

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Quvku3H_USs]Subaru Forester e-Boxer First Test - YouTube[/ame]

[covertrussian]

A friend just sent me pictures of the hybrid trans, it has gears and no CVT belt! It's looking similar to Toyota's Hybrid CVT's (which are also beltless). I'm hoping this tech makes it to the Ascent too!

[Pilot1226]

The one in the Crosstrek Hybrid has the similar design as the Toyota Prius one with the sun and planets.

[IcEWoLF]

Never going to buy a Subaru hybrid unless they can put out Tesla like numbers.

Sorry I can’t stand slow rides anymore

[covertrussian]

The one in the Crosstrek Hybrid has the similar design as the Toyota Prius one with the sun and planets.

 

Looks like they are licensing the Toyota tech for this, so that explains it.

[Pilot1226]

Well, from a reliability standpoint, they've proven it'll last with the Prius all over the place now... I like that it's about a second faster 0-60 (the Crosstrek PHEV) compared to the standard one, I just am not a fan of forcing you into the Limited/Touring-esque trim level to get it.

 

Toyota charges about $2000-2500 more for the Hybrid variant of the RAV4 compared to the standard ICE, across all their trim levels.

 

I'm personally hoping that the Crosstrek PHEV is more of a "tech demo" to show everyone that it works well compared to the previous XV Hybrid it replaced, and also now that we're on the global platform, we can spread it across the fleet.

 

Not a fan of the "no spare tire" thing, and I hope they can come up with something about that. I don't really want to go for run-flats, but I would if I had no other choice. I understand the battery in the Crosstrek is between the "existing" spare well in the back and the trunk cargo area, but maybe there's a way to figure it out to go from the bottom.

 

Also heard the RAV4 is going to return to the rear-mounted Spare and horizontal liftgate on some trims... that would be interesting.

 

To me, the RAV4 is the most attractive competitor in terms of reliability, functionality, and efficiency, but it's certainly not a Subie. I love my Forester.

[laufu]

Isn't there two hybrid systems for Subaru now? One that uses the old hybrid system that only has one motor with the Subaru CVT and then the new two motor system found in the Crosstrek (plug-in) Hybrid that has the Prius transmission.

 

From the images on the Subaru Europe website, the E-Boxer in the Forester/XV looks like it uses the older system, i.e. the one with only 1 motor and the conventional Subaru CVT.

[ehsnils]

I'm not surprised though since the EU legislation is demanding a certain improvement in fuel consumption per year, and if the manufacturers "overachieve" one year they can't use that for the following year.

 

 

Legislators are brickheads.

[covertrussian]

Ok I think I'm sold on the idea of a PHEV Subaru, especially since it has the Toyota's geared CVT without a belt!

 

The performance of this system is top notch compared to RAV4 hybrid or even gas version.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qidx3AsUmpk]2019 Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid Off-Road Challenge! (PHEV) - YouTube[/ame]

[Pilot1226]

Yup. I suppose I can wish for a hybrid mid cycle refresh, right?

[covertrussian]

Yup. I suppose I can wish for a hybrid mid cycle refresh, right?

 

I'm assuming you're referring to the Ascent right? Even with reduced tow and interior capacity, and even if the MPG is not THAT much better, I still would consider it for the planetary gear based CVT.

[Pilot1226]

I'm assuming you're referring to the Ascent right? Even with reduced tow and interior capacity, and even if the MPG is not THAT much better, I still would consider it for the planetary gear based CVT.

 

Actually, no. I had a pretty long chat with my wife a few months ago before I ended up leasing a 2019 Forester, and because she already owns a third-row SUV we decided we really didn't need 2 of them. The Foz is pretty cool, but there've been a few times I've wanted the longer profile of the Outback cargo area.

 

I just love the efficiency of the hybrid - taking my almost constant city braking and changing it into energy for propulsion, and being able to plug it in at night and at work to stay in electric mode and save wear-and-tear on the ICE. I imagine the brake pads last longer, too.

 

I agree with you - I love the idea of the planetary CVT because that's been established in the Prius line for over a decade now... My biggest concern about the hybrid is that the Crosstrek hybrid has no spare tire, and I drive through a pretty dumpy city on my way to work, so that's the last thing I want.

 

I'm sure eventually we'll find an Outback Hybrid, but I was hoping for a Foz Hybrid at the midcycle refresh. There's rumors abound already for some type of mid-SUV type of hybrid coming in 2021/2022, but I don't know if they mean Calendar Year or Model Year. It would seem that if the Fozzy was the next Hybrid target - since they already offer one in Europe and Japan apparently - that would be in line with the Model Year 2021 Foz, and the 2022 would be more in line with the Leggy / OB.

 

Now, the Crosstrek is about a full second faster for 0-60 on the Hybrid.

 

But the 2019 Foz does it in over 9 seconds; the 2018 did it in the 8's, and the 2018 XT did it in under 7. That's a big difference. I wonder if they did this for longevity of the CVT? 9+ seconds is an eternity merging onto the highway. Around down I sure don't feel like I'm low on power... but I guess I'm only getting up to 35-40 in the city before it's another red light.

 

For me I can't see myself keeping my Foz at the end of the lease because:

1. I got a Premium and miss some of the Limited features I had

2. I want ventilated seats

3. I drive around 85+% city, so a hybrid is perfect for me.

4. Auto lane centering! on the newer models.

 

If I had a giant driveway I'd probably get that Ascent, but because I'm in a suburb outside of NYC, real estate and land is stupid expensive. As a result I have a 4 car driveway that must have had 4 "sedans" in mind when they made it (before we bought it), because I would only have about 3" between the two cars if I parked them on the extreme sides of the driveway.

 

I'm curiously watching the new Outback XT's also, but I'm concerned about the 2.4T engine's long-term ownership as I've never had a turbo car before and everyone seems to complain about having blown the turbo around 100k.

 

I could see myself going to a Fozzy Hybrid in 2021 MY when my lease is up, but if there's no spare tire I'd have to put run-flats on that sucker which seems counter intuitive to hybrids.

 

If no Fozzy Hybrid I'd have to really toss and turn about either going for an OB Touring or Touring XT or going for a Limited or Touring Foz at the refresh... I'm trying to keep track on my phone in iNotes about how often I need that extra cargo space. It's only been like 10 times in the 6 months of "leasing" it, but it's a pain to switch with the Mrs. for her Honda Pilot because of parking permits/decals at our workplace.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Pilot1226

[covertrussian]

Actually, no. I had a pretty long chat with my wife a few months ago before I ended up leasing a 2019 Forester, and because she already owns a third-row SUV we decided we really didn't need 2 of them. The Foz is pretty cool, but there've been a few times I've wanted the longer profile of the Outback cargo area.

 

Makes sense, having two 7 seaters might be a bit too much, especially for your parking space. When we get the a 7-8 seater, I'm probably gonna trade in/sell the Outback. I thought about keeping it, but it's too big for daily driving and parking at my work, thus I've considered getting a Forester XT instead (because offroading a newish 7-8 seater doesn't seem smart).

 

I just love the efficiency of the hybrid - taking my almost constant city braking and changing it into energy for propulsion, and being able to plug it in at night and at work to stay in electric mode and save wear-and-tear on the ICE. I imagine the brake pads last longer, too.

 

Do plugin hybrids not use regenerative braking? While my work is 5-7miles from home, I go home for lunch so that would be more then the battery can hold heh.

 

I agree with you - I love the idea of the planetary CVT because that's been established in the Prius line for over a decade now... My biggest concern about the hybrid is that the Crosstrek hybrid has no spare tire, and I drive through a pretty dumpy city on my way to work, so that's the last thing I want.

 

Now the spare tire deal wouldn't be a problem in the Ascent due to the under trunk floor mounted tire (which I love btw!). As for crosstrek's I bet people will make trunk door mounted ones eventually.

 

 

Now, the Crosstrek is about a full second faster for 0-60 on the Hybrid.

 

But the 2019 Foz does it in over 9 seconds; the 2018 did it in the 8's, and the 2018 XT did it in under 7. That's a big difference. I wonder if they did this for longevity of the CVT? 9+ seconds is an eternity merging onto the highway. Around down I sure don't feel like I'm low on power... but I guess I'm only getting up to 35-40 in the city before it's another red light.

 

That's actually really impressive, on the plugin hybrid being faster, and it's even 3700lbs! Is that on electric motor or even 100% on gas motor?

 

 

For me I can't see myself keeping my Foz at the end of the lease because:

1. I got a Premium and miss some of the Limited features I had

2. I want ventilated seats

3. I drive around 85+% city, so a hybrid is perfect for me.

4. Auto lane centering! on the newer models.

 

If I had a giant driveway I'd probably get that Ascent, but because I'm in a suburb outside of NYC, real estate and land is stupid expensive. As a result I have a 4 car driveway that must have had 4 "sedans" in mind when they made it (before we bought it), because I would only have about 3" between the two cars if I parked them on the extreme sides of the driveway.

 

Agreed to that, if I'm gonna pay over 20k for a car it better have nicer amenities then my current cars. Good thing you leased, it's like buying your first house, you'll find out what you REALLY want and need within the first year

 

 

I'm curiously watching the new Outback XT's also, but I'm concerned about the 2.4T engine's long-term ownership as I've never had a turbo car before and everyone seems to complain about having blown the turbo around 100k.

 

I'm not concerned about that anymore, especially since Subaru is now using Garrett turbos. Most of the Subaru turbo issues were from cheap IHI turbos, I heard of far less issues with Mitsubishi based turbos in WRX/FXT's (even with though they still had banjo bolt filters and up pipe cats too).

 

Anyway, I think they learned a lot by 2007 Legacies and I wouldn't sweat it.

 

I could see myself going to a Fozzy Hybrid in 2021 MY when my lease is up, but if there's no spare tire I'd have to put run-flats on that sucker which seems counter intuitive to hybrids.

 

If no Fozzy Hybrid I'd have to really toss and turn about either going for an OB Touring or Touring XT or going for a Limited or Touring Foz at the refresh... I'm trying to keep track on my phone in iNotes about how often I need that extra cargo space. It's only been like 10 times in the 6 months of "leasing" it, but it's a pain to switch with the Mrs. for her Honda Pilot because of parking permits/decals at our workplace.

 

Hey by that point I might finally be able to afford a bigger car myself too. I only need the extra space 5-10 times a YEAR, but when I need it I REALLY need it.

[Pilot1226]

Do plugin hybrids not use regenerative braking? While my work is 5-7miles from home, I go home for lunch so that would be more then the battery can hold heh.

 

I believe they have the figure for the Crosstrek PHEV somewhere around 14 miles on 100% electric charge (which is up to like 55-65mph?) but this is probably under ideal circumstances where you aren't using heat or AC.

 

That's actually really impressive, on the plugin hybrid being faster, and it's even 3700lbs! Is that on electric motor or even 100% on gas motor?

 

It's a combination. Once you go over a certain percentage of throttle input, the gas engine kicks in (and will stay on for a few minutes to bring the ICE up to temperature). The way the two hybrid motors work is that they act as an assist.

 

Agreed to that, if I'm gonna pay over 20k for a car it better have nicer amenities then my current cars. Good thing you leased, it's like buying your first house, you'll find out what you REALLY want and need within the first year

 

Fortunately the Fog Lights aren't as important here. My lights in the 2011 OB were kind of weak, but the LED's in the 2019 Forester are significantly brighter. (I also changed the OEM Fogs to a heavy-intensity bulb like Silverstars for more lumination)

 

I'm not concerned about that anymore, especially since Subaru is now using Garrett turbos. Most of the Subaru turbo issues were from cheap IHI turbos, I heard of far less issues with Mitsubishi based turbos in WRX/FXT's (even with though they still had banjo bolt filters and up pipe cats too).

 

Anyway, I think they learned a lot by 2007 Legacies and I wouldn't sweat it.

 

Cool, that makes me feel better. I read on the Ascent forum that they're using Honeywells, I forgot about that.

 

 

 

Anyway, over on the Forester forums, I posted a little 6-month ownership/leasing recap of my Premium:

https://www.subaruforester.org/threads/first-service-complete-a-6-month-retrospective-on-my-premium.804272/

 

@covertrussian

 

If you're interested in it, I'd go see if you can test drive the Crosstrek PHEV. I was interested in it mostly just for the "technology demo" of the Subieyota mashup, and I think they did a great job this time - it's just a touch too small. It's also on the more expensive side - it was just shy of 40k and it only comes in one trim. The one thing that Toyota's got going for it is that they offer a hybrid variant for every trim - like on the RAV4. Unfortunately for Toyota, the RAV4 drives dull in my opinion.

 

The PHEV at my local dealer was sold and therefore you couldn't go in it or drive it. I like that they're truthful and honor the "gtfo, it's someone else's car" approach. I found a copy of someone's driver's license in the Honda Pilot we bought back in 2016 - which means it had to happen between the date I left the deposit on the car and the date we picked it up. Wasn't happy about that, and the extra miles, but they tried to make it right by throwing in a few important accessories, like a free trailer hitch. $500 apology accepted.

 

Looking quickly at the price differences between the top-tier Crosstrek and Forester, I wouldn't be surprised when or if they offer a Forester Hybrid that it might kiss $40-45k. Which, again, might be worth it anyway if I'm about to drop close to $40k on a Touring Outback anyway. It's tough comparing the Outback XT and a non-existent unicorn Forester Hybrid.

 

I'll get my damn unicorn one day. And no, not the turbo Baja stickshift. lol.

Edited July 26, 2019 by Pilot1226

[ehsnils]

Ok I think I'm sold on the idea of a PHEV Subaru, especially since it has the Toyota's geared CVT without a belt!

 

The performance of this system is top notch compared to RAV4 hybrid or even gas version.

 

 

Technically the Subaru gearboxes uses a chain, not a belt.

 

 

And here's the principle of the Toyota solution. I'm not sure it's much better.

[Pilot1226]

My understanding is that the planetary Toyota design has virtually no wear and tear. Whereas when the CVT chain slips for whatever reason, it grenades.

 

Also it appears that nobody will fix the CVT. Which is potentially an $8000+ repair.

[ehsnils]

Seems like there can be problems with the Toyota CVT too:

 

 

 

And any gearbox that goes bad is going to be expensive. Classic manual are probably the cheapest to fix in any case.

[covertrussian]

Technically the Subaru gearboxes uses a chain, not a belt.

 

You are correct, though it is more of a metal "belt" then a traditional chain, since traditional chains would have linked and geared sprockets. I wonder if you can even call a Nissan CVT belt a belt either, since it's made out of metal "elements", bound by a metal band. Now when the metal bands rip, the metal elements tend to go everywhere.

 

I did find this factory five post, which sums up my feelings about calling the Subaru CVT belt a "chain"

Although what you show looks like a chain, it is actually a belt. It is actually built with a chain core, with angled contact patches on the side. If you coated the whole thing in "V" shaped rubber, you may call it a chain-reinforced belt. Some manufacturers actually advertise it as a chain but they are in error. A chain will mesh with cogs. A belt uses static friction against a smooth pulley surface. You can doose a chain and cog with oil and it will not slip any more easily than without the oil. That's because it relies on force perpindicular to the surface contact patch rather than static friction force parallel to the contact patch. No one has ever made a chain driven CVT and never will. That is because cogs have a finite number of teeth, from which you cannot derive infinately variable ratios.

 

The technology has, and will continue to advance. Auto companies have spent an enormous amout of research on materials science to optimize the static friction coefficient and the durability of the surface contact materials. This is chiefly why they are so expensive to repair. The materials science may well be close t dimenishing returns by now. It will always be limited, however to its basic design reliance on friction. Meshing gears will by nature, always be cheaper, more durable and more reliable than components relying on friction.

 

 

Now it's hard to find info on how Subaru CVT chain holds up to catastrophic failures, perhaps because they don't fail nearly as much or gloriously? It does seem like the main failure is engine revving up and car not going anywhere (ala similar to clutch slips).

 

Anyway, all transmissions can have problems, I prefer my transmissions to have direct gear contacts like manuals or DCT setups, but I've also seen enough sheared manual gears too (especially when turbocharging cars that were not designed for it ). With that in mind, I like Toyota's hybrid CVT because it relies on magnetic fields to "lock in the engine to transmission", eliminating the torque converter and slip doesn't result in catastrophic failure of the CVT belt/chain. Plus the amount of 300k mile Priuses out there is insane.

Edited July 31, 2019 by covertrussian

[Pilot1226]

Right I was thinking the same thing.

 

From my understanding if I had to put my finger on a sole weak spot it would probably be the valve body or solenoids as the fluid starts to gather gunk later in the service life. These contaminants from wear will eventually deposit somewhere not good.

 

Regular fluid drain and fills help but there is a lot less particulates due to less moving parts and less wear and tear on the CVT compared to an AT setup. The problem I see is that there is no recommended CVTF interval for US spec cars and a lot of us are skeptical of lifetime. Personally I would just do it at the same time I do coolant changes. But I tend to not have my cars that long.

[ammcinnis]

I don't like Subaru anymore ...

It's OK not to "like Subaru any more," but it does raise the question ... Why are you even here?

[ehsnils]

It's OK not to "like Subaru any more," but it does raise the question ... Why are you even here?

 

 

Especially with one single post in total...

[SubieDriver]

Hmm, "I don't like Subaru anymore, I dream about Tesla" posted in the e-boxer thread. Tossing out Subaru EV cuz they're going EV like Tesla? Everybody's doing it. It's the thing to do. Tesla has some stiff competition coming up quickly.