Fuel pump/injectors mod first or Turbo/Uppipe?

[Scoobiidoo]

Trying to figure out how to go about installing all the new parts. Have DW65C fuel pump and DW740 injectors, VF52 and uppipe.

 

Should I install the fuel pump and injectors first? Get the injectors and MAF scaled, then install the turbo and uppipe?

 

Or just do them all in one go? I will be doing all the work alone and would like to minimize car downtime so most likely doing it on Saturday and Sunday.

 

Thanks.

[cryo]

Hey there,

 

You can install it all and then tune, we etune setups like that all the time.

 

If you are getting an tune reach out to your dyno tuner/etuner and they should be able to supply you with a map to start it up

 

*we are happy to help if you have not decided on a tuner yet lol*.

 

Let us know if we can help

 

Dave

[Max Capacity]

Not to add more work, but, what about the banjo filter, has it been removed ?

 

Getting a new oil return hose too ?

 

I'm guessing fuel pump, then injectors first.

 

What's the Tuner recommend ?

 

You should be able to get a first tune for all the pieces installed so when you start it, it will be close.

 

Any good Tuner should have a base map for those pieces.

[Max Capacity]

Well look at that ^ that's someone your going to want to get to know. Dave is one of the best.

[mondtster]

Did we get all the other problems addressed first and get the engine a clean bill of health? If not, that's what needs to happen first so you don't mask problems with tuning.

 

After that, I'd just put all the parts on and give the tuning a go. I'd start with getting the fueling squared away then you can work on the rest of it.

[Scoobiidoo]

Did we get all the other problems addressed first and get the engine a clean bill of health? If not, that's what needs to happen first so you don't mask problems with tuning.

 

After that, I'd just put all the parts on and give the tuning a go. I'd start with getting the fueling squared away then you can work on the rest of it.

 

Unfortunately, the last source of the problem is the wastegate leaking. I don't have a spare wastegate to confirm clean bill of health.

 

All banjo bolts except for the one under the turbo and behind the timing gear have been inspected to have no filters. Will get to the one under the turbo when I have the turbo out. I have a turbo install kit that comes with all gaskets, washers, braided oil and coolant lines.

 

On tuner, I currently haven't decided on one yet. I don't know if it is possible to purchase a tune with open access to me after the tuning is done. Coming from Megasquirt background, I have been reading up and learning about the Romraider software and have a pretty good understanding of how it works. I prefer to be able to tweak and adjust the tune myself after the tuning is done with the tuner. Eventually, I would love switching to MAP speed density tuning.

[whitexc]

Curious, what were you tuning with MS?

 

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

[Max Capacity]

"All banjo bolts except for the one under the turbo and behind the timing gear have been inspected to have no filters. Will get to the one under the turbo when I have the turbo out. I have a turbo install kit that comes with all gaskets, washers, braided oil and coolant lines."

 

The only ones with filters are the two you haven't checked. They have a raised knob on the head of the banjo bolt. The others don't.

 

You'll want to PM or contact Dave at CRYO and have him guide you.

[cryo]

We currently leave opensource mapping unlocked for future editing but obviously making the wrong adjustments in the wrong tables can be a little tedious to downright dangerous if your not sure how the oem ecu balances specific tables etc.

 

Speed density is not needed on these cars until upwards of 450-500whp and exceeding the stock maf *or more often making a custom intake for a rotated kit.

 

hope that helps and as mentioned earlier, any mechanical issues that are not figured out prior to tuning will just complicate the process. If your wastegate is questionable, test it with a pressure pump to see its actuation etc.

 

Dave

[Scoobiidoo]

Curious, what were you tuning with MS?

 

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

 

 

I build and tune MS system for 80s turbocharged BMWs(3, 5, 6 and 7 series).

 

@cryo,

 

Yes. From reading and tweaking the base tune this past month, I realized how complex/silly the tuning software is.

 

For me, the main reason for going MAP speed density is not for big power but for simplicity when there's a vacuum or boost leak. On my weekend turbocharged 7, I can pop a hose or 2 without having to worry about anything and keep driving until I can reconnect the hose/hoses safely. Again, this is coming from my MS background. I am still reading up on how the SD conversion is on the Subaru. I just bought the car less than 2 months ago. Not looking for big power, all the mods I am making are preventative maintenance. In fact, I won't even go over 15 psi with the modded VF52 if possible. My driving style is gradual roll on and drives mainly around 2500-3500 rpm on the 5EAT. Just looking for safe reliable driving without killing the 5EAT prematurely.

 

As far as tweaking the tune myself, it is understood and accepted that once a tuning job is concluded with the tuner, i.e. the car is running the way it should be, anything I do after is my own responsibility. I know I am at the "know enough to be dangerous" stage right now but I am a safe methodical learner. Plus the fact that I need to turn off the car, connect the Green connectors before I can make any changes is a very safe way for me to think things through before actually making any changes. The only risk in taking my business will be answering my questions on how to make things easier.

 

On the wastegate actuator problem, from the smoke test, it looks to be the last source of the leak. The videos are posted here - https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/smoke-coming-fromi-see-video-wastegate-supposed-venti-277807.html?t=277807

[mondtster]

Unfortunately, the last source of the problem is the wastegate leaking. I don't have a spare wastegate to confirm clean bill of health.

 

Then I would put the turbo on first and confirm you have no vacuum leaks or any other problems. You'll just mask any problems that remain when you start messing with the injector scaling and voltage offsets otherwise.

 

Yes. From reading and tweaking the base tune this past month, I realized how complex/silly the tuning software is.

 

The converse could also be said. The megasquirt systems are quite crude at best. No OEM I'm aware of uses a system like megasquirt these days and it would be beneficial to learn how the newer systems work.

 

That's not to say that I think the Subaru ECUs are good, nor do I think the megasquirt is bad (I'm putting one on a turbo Subaru). In fact, I think the Subaru ECUs stink. But you, coming from a BMW background, should be familiar with the Motronic ECUs and how they work. The Subaru ECUs aren't a ton different but I think the Bosch stuff is more logical and more advanced.

[Scoobiidoo]

Then I would put the turbo on first and confirm you have no vacuum leaks or any other problems. You'll just mask any problems that remain when you start messing with the injector scaling and voltage offsets otherwise.

 

That was what I was thinking as well. Assuming the worst case scenario where the wastegate actuator is not the only source of the leak from the smoke test, and since I already have a new stock turbo inlet hose I would get it install as well. After that, the only remote possibility of a leak would be from the TGV sensor gasket??(the sensor under/front of the turbo) that I read from someone's post here.

[cryo]

I build and tune MS system for 80s turbocharged BMWs(3, 5, 6 and 7 series).

 

@cryo,

 

Yes. From reading and tweaking the base tune this past month, I realized how complex/silly the tuning software is.

 

For me, the main reason for going MAP speed density is not for big power but for simplicity when there's a vacuum or boost leak. On my weekend turbocharged 7, I can pop a hose or 2 without having to worry about anything and keep driving until I can reconnect the hose/hoses safely. Again, this is coming from my MS background. I am still reading up on how the SD conversion is on the Subaru. I just bought the car less than 2 months ago. Not looking for big power, all the mods I am making are preventative maintenance. In fact, I won't even go over 15 psi with the modded VF52 if possible. My driving style is gradual roll on and drives mainly around 2500-3500 rpm on the 5EAT. Just looking for safe reliable driving without killing the 5EAT prematurely.

 

As far as tweaking the tune myself, it is understood and accepted that once a tuning job is concluded with the tuner, i.e. the car is running the way it should be, anything I do after is my own responsibility. I know I am at the "know enough to be dangerous" stage right now but I am a safe methodical learner. Plus the fact that I need to turn off the car, connect the Green connectors before I can make any changes is a very safe way for me to think things through before actually making any changes. The only risk in taking my business will be answering my questions on how to make things easier.

 

On the wastegate actuator problem, from the smoke test, it looks to be the last source of the leak. The videos are posted here - https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/smoke-coming-fromi-see-video-wastegate-supposed-venti-277807.html?t=277807

 

The OEM logic is really good with dealing with leaks actually up to a point. The good thing about having full time LTFT and STFT and maf based is it allows upwards of 30% fuel correction to target lambda at any non aggressive driving. In boost is a whole different story as they are openloop based at that point and go off scaling at that point. Speed density doesnt really "help" get around that but if you blow an intercooler pipe on the side of the highway you can always fail the maf to kick it into speed density to limp home etc. How I look at it is if you have a big enough leak to cause a performance issue it will not matter what type of fueling style you are on, the leaks need to be addressed and fixed to have a proper running car.

 

I dont mind questions during the tuning process but I cannot walk people through the steps and the hows and why's of all changes since we have to keep the ball rolling but am normally happy to try and answer legitimate questions throughout the process.

 

The OEM subaru ecu in these cars is actually quite amazing and can do pretty amazing stuff when combined with coding experts such as COBB or Carberry for the 16bit ecus....They have given us ECU logic that has allowed people to break 1000hp on the stock ecu which is pretty impressive when you think about making 250whp per cylinder!

 

If your having mechanical concerns I would say swap the turbo first, run a line from the turbo to the wastegate itself to limit you to wastegate boost and do your testing to verify the issue has been fixed before adding injectors etc.

 

Dave

[Scoobiidoo]

The OEM logic is really good with dealing with leaks actually up to a point. The good thing about having full time LTFT and STFT and maf based is it allows upwards of 30% fuel correction to target lambda at any non aggressive driving. In boost is a whole different story as they are openloop based at that point and go off scaling at that point. Speed density doesnt really "help" get around that but if you blow an intercooler pipe on the side of the highway you can always fail the maf to kick it into speed density to limp home etc. How I look at it is if you have a big enough leak to cause a performance issue it will not matter what type of fueling style you are on, the leaks need to be addressed and fixed to have a proper running car.

 

I dont mind questions during the tuning process but I cannot walk people through the steps and the hows and why's of all changes since we have to keep the ball rolling but am normally happy to try and answer legitimate questions throughout the process.

 

The OEM subaru ecu in these cars is actually quite amazing and can do pretty amazing stuff when combined with coding experts such as COBB or Carberry for the 16bit ecus....They have given us ECU logic that has allowed people to break 1000hp on the stock ecu which is pretty impressive when you think about making 250whp per cylinder!

 

If your having mechanical concerns I would say swap the turbo first, run a line from the turbo to the wastegate itself to limit you to wastegate boost and do your testing to verify the issue has been fixed before adding injectors etc.

 

Dave

 

Thank you. I do like having full-time LTFT and STFT and am still reading up on it. I have tried running on open-loop only and it lacks the depth needed for the complex ecu algorithm. I see the Subaru ecu like an Android phone who is trying to behave like an iPhone User-friendly but totally customizable if you know what you are doing.

 

Based on all the feedback here, I am going to swap the turbo in first. But when the other parts are removed allowing better viewing of the area, I will run another smoke test and make sure the smoke didn't come from the TGV sensor. I would hate to have to uninstall the turbo again to fix the TGV gasket leak.

 

I am going to PM you later and go from there.

 

Thanks.