mitchbp6 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Hey guys, Just recently bought an 06 outback XT with a 5 Speed Manual Transmission in addition to my 05 LGT. The seller had noted to me that the TOB was making noise (and it was making some noise, not super loud). I have put about 1200km on it since buying it, have not been driving it excessively. Just today, I has noticed (This was not occurring for the first 1200km since buying the vehicle) that when I engage the clutch (depress the pedal) and shift, then release the clutch, it makes an odd grinding ish noise and the motor/tranny jerks. This does not feel/sound like syncros, the gears fall in to place smoothly. Assuming the TOB is part of the problem, could in addition to a bad TOB, the flywheel be no good? Causing the jerking when releasing the clutch? If I need to replace the whole clutch assembly + flywheel, I have no problem with doing that. I just want other peoples input/experience before I start pulling my motor. Could this be something else in the tranny or drivetrain? Car drives fine once in gear and clutch is fully released. I am quite familiar with all engine related items, but I am more limited in experience with drivetrains, transmissions, and clutch assemblies. Let me know what you all think, much appreciated! I also might record a video if possible, but not sure if I will get the time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 How many miles on the clutch in the car ? Might plan on replacing the clutch kit and replace the DMFW with a FW from a 07-09 LGT and clutch kit to match. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relative4 Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 Get in there before driving it again. A bad TOB will destroy the transmission snout if ignored, and then you have to replace the transmission. If you're lucky, you're just looking at clutch failure and your tranny is OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Sorry for the late reply and update guys! Just been busy with my sisters wedding. Car was parked since I posted this, then I had to drive it 1.5 hours on the highway back home, light clutch use during that time. How many miles on the clutch in the car ? Might plan on replacing the clutch kit and replace the DMFW with a FW from a 07-09 LGT and clutch kit to match. I do not know how many kms (or miles) is on the clutch, all I know is that it was done in October of 2012. My guess would be about 80,000km (50,000 miles). During this time, the following was replaced: Flywheel Pressure Plate Cover Release Bearing Pilot Bearing So an 07-09 OBXT or LGT clutch kit and flywheel is my best option? I am working on pulling the motor now. Get in there before driving it again. A bad TOB will destroy the transmission snout if ignored, and then you have to replace the transmission. If you're lucky, you're just looking at clutch failure and your tranny is OK. I will find out once I remove my motor. If I need another tranny, at least they are only about $500 CAD used. I had to drive it home since I posted the original thread, which is 130km away (~80 miles) I will update once I pull the motor out and inspect things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 I'm not a big fan of the OEM clutches in these cars. The OEM smfw is great, just put a clutch in that will hold more power. I have had good performance out of Spec Clutches. I use the 2+ Spec clutch. It will make a howl sound sometimes letting it out in 1st gear, but when I asked Spec about it, I was told its because of the carbon/Kevlar material. My 05 wagon currently has a OEM smfw for 07-09 Legacy GT with the matching Spec 2+ clutch. Also Spec has great customer service. Call them or email them if you want. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 I'm not a big fan of the OEM clutches in these cars. The OEM smfw is great, just put a clutch in that will hold more power. I have had good performance out of Spec Clutches. I use the 2+ Spec clutch. It will make a howl sound sometimes letting it out in 1st gear, but when I asked Spec about it, I was told its because of the carbon/Kevlar material. My 05 wagon currently has a OEM smfw for 07-09 Legacy GT with the matching Spec 2+ clutch. Also Spec has great customer service. Call them or email them if you want. Thanks for the information! I will check them out. I am thinking a stage 2 clutch will be a bit much for me, I am assuming maybe their stage 1 clutches will still be okay? Do you know if their flywheels compare to OEM or is OEM much better? Also when you say "smfw", whats the "sm" mean? Sorry, I am not familiar with the abbreviations I have the engine out, I will post some pictures later. I have yet to take the clutch assembly apart. I am very familiar with most automotive repairs, but I have done a clutch job with a friend only once, so this is pretty new stuff for me. Any particular signs of wear I am looking for? I am assuming I will see most of the wear on the TOB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 single mass fly wheel = SMFW 05-06 came with a DMFW= dual mass fly wheel. The Spec 2 clutch in my wagon only lasted 50,000 miles before it began to slip. There is a thread about some clutches in the Tranny Forum. Jeremy@specclutch.com that's who I emailed, I'll also say a old drag racing buddy works for Spec also. Wear is not very easy to tell, you can measure what's left, but you would need to know what it started with for material thickness. I was surprised to find out how little material is there to start with. For the new set up, make sure you use a little film of high temp grease on the tranny snout where the TOB slides and on the splines where the disc sits and on the end of the input shaft where the pilot bearing sits. Some on the pivot ball is ok too. When installing the tranny, before you bolt it up, make sure the fork has not fallen off the pivot ball. I learned that the hard way... My click here link will have some picture of the old Spec 2+ after 85,000 miles and the new Spec 2 going on. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 single mass fly wheel = SMFW 05-06 came with a DMFW= dual mass fly wheel. The Spec 2 clutch in my wagon only lasted 50,000 miles before it began to slip. There is a thread about some clutches in the Tranny Forum. Jeremy@specclutch.com that's who I emailed, I'll also say a old drag racing buddy works for Spec also. Wear is not very easy to tell, you can measure what's left, but you would need to know what it started with for material thickness. I was surprised to find out how little material is there to start with. For the new set up, make sure you use a little film of high temp grease on the tranny snout where the TOB slides and on the splines where the disc sits and on the end of the input shaft where the pilot bearing sits. Some on the pivot ball is ok too. When installing the tranny, before you bolt it up, make sure the fork has not fallen off the pivot ball. I learned that the hard way... My click here link will have some picture of the old Spec 2+ after 85,000 miles and the new Spec 2 going on. Thanks for all the advise!! Much appreciated! Ill take a look at your build thread this week sometime for sure! Ill be taking my time figuring out what parts I want to order, I don't need the car right now since I have my first Legacy GT (silver wagon) and my 4Runner. The outback will be sitting in the garage for the next 3 ish weeks probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Glad to hear you have time to process the info and make a choice. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 21, 2018 Author Share Posted November 21, 2018 Here is the progress: http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/mitch667/IMG_0053_zpsynikhtfa.jpg http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/mitch667/IMG_0058_zpsl7mthrfc.jpg http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/mitch667/IMG_0059_zpsg6di1zdc.jpg http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/mitch667/IMG_0064_zpsemmnvlbf.jpg Resting on an engine stand for now until I decide to take the clutch apart. The transmission shaft looks fine, I think I actually found out the clunking problem... It was a heat shield close to the downpipe that I had bent to access the o2 sensor. I forgot to bend it back, so I think every time I engaged the clutch and releases, the normal engine movement just have caused the shield and the downpipe to scrape against each other and cause a loud noise. Thats my best guess and it would make sense since the car drove reasonably well before I swapped over all my stage 2 bolt on upgrades from my LGT to my OBXT. Either way the TOB is starting to go, so its best I change the clutch kit while the engine is out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmP6889928 Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 What do the fingers on the pressure plate look like? Quite a lot of metal flake on the TOB in your photo. Might have worn the fingers down due to sticking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 What do the fingers on the pressure plate look like? Quite a lot of metal flake on the TOB in your photo. Might have worn the fingers down due to sticking. Photo, what photo ? I don't see one in the post above ? 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 Photo, what photo ? I don't see one in the post above ? I did post (4) photos in my last post, JmP6889928 is probably talking about photo #3. I have not pulled the clutch system apart yet. I will try to get to that this weekend. Either way, I will be replacing all the clutch components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Today I can see the pictures. Can you take a photo of the back side of the engine before you remove the clutch ? While the engines out, remove the filter from the banjo bolt. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 Today I can see the pictures. Can you take a photo of the back side of the engine before you remove the clutch ? While the engines out, remove the filter from the banjo bolt. For sure! I will snap a few pictures probably on Saturday. As for the Banjo Bolt filters, I checked a few and it looks like they were removed, but I will definitely check the rest, thanks for the reminder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 There are only two banjos with filters. On the back and front of the heads in 05-06. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 23, 2018 Author Share Posted November 23, 2018 There are only two banjos with filters. On the back and front of the heads in 05-06. Haha, looks like I am learning lots. I thought all the banjo bolts had filters. I will definitely take a look at them. The banjo bolt on the front is covered by one of the cam gears right? If I remember correctly when I was doing the timing belt on my LGT (Never took the cam gear off or banjo bolt as the mechanic I bought it from said they were all removed so I took his word on it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 They may be removed but it will be good to know for sure. The rear one is easy to check now. The front one can be removed by grinding down the top notch on the bolt and backing it out. There is a thread on it, HAMMERDOWN did a nice job on thread. https://www.bing.com/search?q=HAMMERDOWN%20thread%20on%20removing%20banjo%20filter%202005%20subaru%20legacy%20gt&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=hammerdown%20thread%20on%20removing%20banjo%20filter%202005%20subaru%20legacy%20gt&sc=1-64&sk=&cvid=056262C5C23F4222B9A9480538D25FAE https://www.bing.com/search?q=removing%20banjo%20filter%202005%20subaru%20legacy%20gt&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=removing%20banjo%20filter%202005%20subaru%20legacy%20gt&sc=1-43&sk=&cvid=2FCB94B080E64B928273903115622072 If you don't have it yet, here's the service manual, http://people.csail.mit.edu/ilh/vacation/ 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 25, 2018 Author Share Posted November 25, 2018 Here is the clutch, I still got to take off the flywheel. I need to buy the proper torque bit and its likely a 2 man job since I need to hold down the crank. If there anyway to better line up the holes on the flywheel to the bolts? not sure if I even need to http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/mitch667/IMG_0086_zps1gm6gapg.jpghttp://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/mitch667/IMG_0091_zpshdfzfk1e.jpghttp://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac31/mitch667/IMG_0094_zpseojhew3v.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 You have the OEM dual mass fly wheel there, I believe you can just pry the top plate back into alignment. I had the Dual Mass replaced with the first Spec LWFW back on Jun 26 2007 by the Dealership. (Long story). You need to get a T50+ torx bit. I used my impact to remove them when I put the EJ257 in. The car now has a 07-09 OEM SMFW with the correct hex head bolts for it, those are OEM bolts too. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 26, 2018 Author Share Posted November 26, 2018 You have the OEM dual mass fly wheel there, I believe you can just pry the top plate back into alignment. I had the Dual Mass replaced with the first Spec LWFW back on Jun 26 2007 by the Dealership. (Long story). You need to get a T50+ torx bit. I used my impact to remove them when I put the EJ257 in. The car now has a 07-09 OEM SMFW with the correct hex head bolts for it, those are OEM bolts too. I am assuming you like the OEM SMFW much better than the Spec LWFW you first had? I am thinking the Spec clutch is a bit out of my price range, especially since its in USD currency... Max, or anyone else, is there another clutch you would recommend for my OBXT with a stage II COBB tune for 91 octane and an intake (HP will not be that much more than stock I'd assume)? Also what would be the best recommendation for a TOB? I would assume another OEM one? Thanks for all the help so far! I got to order a TORX TP50. Hopefully I can find an impact one haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 Make sure you order the T50+ it is different then a T50. I find no difference between the Spec LWFW and the OEM SMFW. I thought the OEM SMFW would give me less low speed/rpm noise. I still get driveline noise if I go to slow in a gear. The Spec Clutches can be purchased from a vendor, don't just assume the price on Spec's site is the retail price. The nice thing about the Spec LWFW, is the friction surface is replaceable, for $80. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 T50 Plus https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=t50+torx+plus&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=177784681662&hvpos=1t2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6725331047676631449&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9003183&hvtargid=kwd-43333002901&ref=pd_sl_82e8u07ojx_b 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchbp6 Posted November 26, 2018 Author Share Posted November 26, 2018 Make sure you order the T50+ it is different then a T50. I find no difference between the Spec LWFW and the OEM SMFW. I thought the OEM SMFW would give me less low speed/rpm noise. I still get driveline noise if I go to slow in a gear. The Spec Clutches can be purchased from a vendor, don't just assume the price on Spec's site is the retail price. The nice thing about the Spec LWFW, is the friction surface is replaceable, for $80. Thanks! I will be ordering the Torx TP50 today. I was trying to find it on Amazon.ca (Canada has less selection.....), but couldn't yesterday, probably because I was not searching "TP" rather "Torx Plus" Also, I can get an Exedy Stage 1 Clutch for a reasonable price, and I will purchase the rest of the clutch components from Subaru (Such as the 07 LGT SMFW, etc..) Here is the Clutch I am thinking: Exedy 15804 https://shop.exedyusa.com/exedy-racing-clutch/exedy-racing-stage-1-organic-clutch-kit/15804/i-34423.aspx Any thoughts? And might be a good idea to upgrade my TOB. I have seen this on some sites and threads: https://www.flatironstuning.com/pdm-tranquil-tsk3-snout-release-bearing-sleeve-repair-kit-subaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted November 26, 2018 Share Posted November 26, 2018 If the end of your tranny snout is messed up then you may need that kit. If not any TOB will be fine. Here's a quick search results I did for the Spec Cutch. Not much different in cost, verify the correct model year. https://www.bing.com/shop?q=spec+2%2b+clutch+kits+2005+subaru+legacy+GT&FORM=SHOPPA&originIGUID=10146B318EAE47E981D3A64E2AFADBFD 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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