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aac0036

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Ah, so your experience racing mini RC cars is applicable to roadgoing cars. I see. [emoji38][emoji38][emoji38]

 

 

Absolutely you have to set everything up from full wheel alignment including toe, caster and camber on each wheel and spring rates and shock oil not to mention where the 3 speed gearbox changes gears, tune the engine. played with fixed rear diff, open diff and LSD, all this on a car capable of 120km/hr and you not even inside it to control it so yes I learned alot.

 

Moved from this into Karting which actually is a whole lot easier to setup in comparison.

 

Everything learned translated into whats happening with your roadcar.

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I mean, it makes sense. Everyone else is going to turbo 4s instead of V6es, and Subaru has a ton of turbo 4 experience.

 

I really think their decision to push the 3.6R was boneheaded. They bet the farm on 6-cylinders right when everyone else started going to turbo 4s. It worked out okay for them, because they finally started properly marketing their cars and producing stuff that appealed more to mainstream buyers, but one wonders if they wouldn't have done even better with an FA20DIT on the Legacy and Outback in 2013.

 

 

I would consider that at the stage the FA20DIT was then it would have been risky to do that change - a case of putting all eggs in the same basket. The H6 at that time was a pretty reliable engine with not many problems (how many threads have we seen here about bombing H6 engines actually?) while the turbo engines are more challenging from the reliability perspective.

 

 

So what would happen if all FA engines had a design flaw that appeared due to some conditions that weren't predicted? The Takata airbag story shows us what would happen.

 

 

So from a marketing perspective it was the right choice - stick with something that you know is safe for the bulk of the production. Some customer would also look at the choice between reliable with a bit higher fuel consumption v.s. new with a risk and a lower fuel consumption.

 

 

 

What I'm actually more concerned about when it comes to Subaru is the "elephant in the room" that few people talk about - the change from VTD to ATS for the AWD.

 

 

The difference here is:

 

  • VTD - always driving on all wheels with the torque split given with the center diff and with a computer to control the limit of the slip between front and rear.
  • ATS - usually a FWD vehicle and then progressively engaging the AWD up to a percentage given by the clutch pack engagement when the computer decides it should be done.

The ATS system is closer to the Haldex system that VW uses and in my opinion and experience it's inferior to the VTD and even the MT gearbox solution with a 50/50 diff and a viscous coupling to limit the slip. It's even inferior to a classic 4WD system with no differential when it comes to getting the traction to the ground in slippery conditions.

 

 

So I would like Subaru to give us the option of having a VTD gearbox and a Torsen rear diff for those of us that are out and about in areas where the snow is coming in horizontally and the cleaning of the roads are done on a weekly basis if we are lucky.

 

 

People complains about the CVT being bad, but in reality it's what happens after the CVT that's the real issue and the software with the traction control overriding the wishes and expectations of the driver.

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I would consider that at the stage the FA20DIT was then it would have been risky to do that change - a case of putting all eggs in the same basket. The H6 at that time was a pretty reliable engine with not many problems (how many threads have we seen here about bombing H6 engines actually?) while the turbo engines are more challenging from the reliability perspective.

 

 

So what would happen if all FA engines had a design flaw that appeared due to some conditions that weren't predicted? The Takata airbag story shows us what would happen.

 

 

So from a marketing perspective it was the right choice - stick with something that you know is safe for the bulk of the production. Some customer would also look at the choice between reliable with a bit higher fuel consumption v.s. new with a risk and a lower fuel consumption.

 

 

 

What I'm actually more concerned about when it comes to Subaru is the "elephant in the room" that few people talk about - the change from VTD to ATS for the AWD.

 

 

The difference here is:

 

  • VTD - always driving on all wheels with the torque split given with the center diff and with a computer to control the limit of the slip between front and rear.
  • ATS - usually a FWD vehicle and then progressively engaging the AWD up to a percentage given by the clutch pack engagement when the computer decides it should be done.

The ATS system is closer to the Haldex system that VW uses and in my opinion and experience it's inferior to the VTD and even the MT gearbox solution with a 50/50 diff and a viscous coupling to limit the slip. It's even inferior to a classic 4WD system with no differential when it comes to getting the traction to the ground in slippery conditions.

 

 

So I would like Subaru to give us the option of having a VTD gearbox and a Torsen rear diff for those of us that are out and about in areas where the snow is coming in horizontally and the cleaning of the roads are done on a weekly basis if we are lucky.

 

 

People complains about the CVT being bad, but in reality it's what happens after the CVT that's the real issue and the software with the traction control overriding the wishes and expectations of the driver.

 

I agree with assessment of the FA20DIT delayed decision. I think to the common buyer the requirement of premium gas was also a deterrent for FA20DIT.

 

I think only the small group of people care about the AWD implementation or limited slip rear differential.

 

Some manufacturers use AWD systems that have clutches to the rear wheels like the ATS, but they chose to operate them is an mostly FWD mode with reactionary to tire spin AWD. I had an AWD Toyota SUV like that. My Outback 4EAT/ATS does not respond like that vehicle in the snow.

 

The Subaru ATS does not operate like FWD, the duty cycle of the clutch engage varies but it never gets to 100% FWD, if you datalog the clutch duty cycle, it averages closer to 70 Front/30 Rear in normal driving loads. The VTD use computer control clutch for the front differential just like the ATS does for rear wheels. If you want to use the argument the ATS system is a FWD then the VTD is a RWD using the same logic. The VTD is not more connected to all 4 wheel than the ATS system. The ATS is front wheel biased while the VTD is RWD biased (it is not just because of the 45/55 planetary gears). The ATS system are probably fine for non performance models such as the 2.0i and 2.5i. I am guess Subaru is going to use the ATS for the LXT probably because they don't consider it a performance model, just like they did for the 3.6R and FXT. [When I figured out Subaru had done that for those HTCVT, it did surprise me that they didn't use the WRX HTCVT with VTD.]

 

I think the torsion differential again works for performance model. My Outback has the viscous limited slip rear end and surprisingly to me it seems to be tail happy. I like it less than the implementation of the two 5th Gen I have owned. It may be just be better evolution of the stability and traction control.

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Sounds like VTD is more similar to the AWD systems in the AMG E-Class or the Genesis G70 which are also rear biased. How do you think the move away from VTD will affect driving dynamics? Would there be more understeer with the FWD biased ATS system?
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The Subaru ATS does not operate like FWD, the duty cycle of the clutch engage varies but it never gets to 100% FWD, if you datalog the clutch duty cycle, it averages closer to 70 Front/30 Rear in normal driving loads.

 

 

My personal experience is that the ATS is noticeable less effective than both VTD and the MT center diff, and that's on naturally aspirated 4 cylinder engines. So you don't really need a performance engine to take advantage of the better solutions.

 

 

I can agree that less tech-savvy people wouldn't know the difference but they might notice that it's less effective than in older subies if they used to drive a 3rd or 4th gen before.

 

 

And the change from neutral with a tad of tail to a complete understeer solution has caught me by surprise a few times when I just had changed car. The vehicle stability system also has been throwing in surprises now and then - overall I feel that I'm less in control now than before.

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Yes where traction is not a problem a RWD is fine but sorry throw in a bit of gravel or a wet road or road with poor traction and thats where the AWD comes into its own.

 

I used to race 1/8 scale gas 4WD cars on the track so no even offroad and you knew the instant you had a front wheel drive problem, the car was quicker with 4WD, so much so 2WD was a separate class.These are approaching 1:1 power to weight ratio so I guess if you want a 1000Hp rear wheel drive road car without the downforce from aerodynamics of an F1 to keep it on the road...

 

Even worse, the track is not the road, our roads are shit. Uneven surface, gravel, pot holes, variable surface types from chip to dead smooth tarseal and thats before it gets wet. AWD rocks in these conditions.

 

If you’re trying to push your vehicle fast enough in inclement weather, or on gravel that AWD makes a huge difference you’re either on a sanctioned race track or rally stage, or you’re a giant shit heel douche bag on a public road.

 

Since we’re talking about the AWD Camry here, we know it’s not a race car for tarmac or rally. So the advantage of the AWD Camry vs the FWD Camry on gravel or wet pavement is moot, unless the driver is a shit bag doing shit bag stuff where he shouldn’t be.

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Well the reality is you don't know how many times that AWD has saved your ass.

 

All I can say is all the crashes and spins and upside down in a ditch accidents I have had have been with FWD cars.

 

It may be strange but the more power and better handling cars I have had the less crashes or incidents.

 

Its been the same for motorbikes, I cannot remember how many times I fell off my first bike, a 125cc. Moved to a 400 then a 750 which was incident free.

 

Try a FWD on a gravel road, you think your going slow and still end up in a ditch.

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Well the reality is you don't know how many times that AWD has saved your ass.

 

Considering he doesn't own an AWD car... Never? [emoji38]

 

And stability control saved my ass at least once that I know of on my Legacy Spec.B, so I'd rather have a RWD car with stability control than an AWD car without.

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At this point, I'd rather buy an Accord or a Sonata, both of which offer the same thing in a more appealing package. And the Accord even offers it with a manual!
Maybe so, but with torque issues in the front end. Dont get me wrong, I've experienced my fair share of torque steer. AWD inherently negated the majority of it unless one is doing stupid things.

 

I have a feeling that at some point in the next 5 years there may be a driveline change toward the gear head. My only reasoning for this is simple. It's what will be different from the rest and hopefully help regain market share of a more diverse crowd. Eventually all of the commuter family sedans are gonna go AWD. Subaru has got to do something to make its car different and more appealing than the rest.

 

At this point it's too much of a "me too" vehicle..

 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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For all of you autistic morons that think AWD is some sort of necessity for driving in winter weather please note that I drive a 2007 Toyota Tundra with a 5.7L V8 all year round. In the Black Hills of South Dakota. It is exceedingly rare that I need to use the 4X4 system on the truck. Only in deep snow, otherwise in rear wheel drive mode it goes where I need it to. We still have a 2006 Scion tC front wheel drive coupe. It has never been stuck, or ended up in the ditch.

 

Most of you live where it either doesn't snow much, or in places that have very good snow removal. We get snow frequently where I live, and the state barely even bothers to clear snow off of rural highways until the snow has stopped. I work on call, and often find myself driving 24 miles to work in the middle of the night busting trail through 6" of fresh snow in the truck, in 4X2.... and still not getting stuck or driving into the ditch. Sometimes I do need 4X4, but only because my employer is not understanding of weather conditions. Most people don't have to drive in that shit, including 99% of the people who will read this post.

 

AWD is overrated, buy good tires and don't drive like a retarded muppet.

 

I buy an AWD vehicle because I can. It's my choice, it doesn't matter what someone else predetermines if the conditions I drive my car in warrants AWD. Using your argument, one can make the same argument of why do we need cars with more than 200 hp, 200hp can go at least 120mph which is more than fast enough for 80mph speed limits in the US. Hell most cars can do 80mph with 100hp.

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AWD is more expensive and that is pretty much the only reason all cars are not AWD. Lets not get into an argument about increased drive train losses and a higher fuel bill, the difference is negligible in a modern car.

 

At some point all of the public that now appear so obsessed with "Safety" in their car will lead to more AWD cars, it has already in the SUV market.

 

Given that I can afford to buy pretty much anything if I wanted, AWD is right up there with a manual transmission. The manual transmission is now becoming far more of a problem than getting a car with AWD.

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We don't get that much snow, but when we do it's usually pretty nasty. Mainly road wise which don't always get plowed well, even in the city.

 

It's just hard to justify snow tires for the 3-4 snow falls a years here. Especially since we have 30-40*F degree swings in a days span. You guys might get more snow, heck it might get so packed down that it's actually easier to drive on, but you might not have a 60F day after it's been snowing all day.

 

All this means is, it's hard to justify snow tires PLUS they will wear out real quickly in the temp swings that we get. I personally got tired of getting stuck in the snow/sleet/ice in my 2wd cars. Plus not everyone has storage for spare tires, thus AWD makes it be good enough.

 

Ontop of that, turbo AWD gets me dry weather traction, my turbo FWD is a wheel spin nation, even with 100hp less then my Legacy. My Outback on the other hand takes me off roading and mudding, where once again AWD comes into play.

 

 

I also think the 4th gen Legacy GT is the Subaru master race. Long gone though. Or maybe I’m just rambling on a late Friday afternoon exhausted after work.

 

While I'm part of the 4th gen master race and I daily mine but... I sure hate framless doors, window motors that are slower then snails, no auto-up windows, no stability control, oh and sub-bar cupholders.

 

Some days I want to go get a 2012 Legacy GT for the creature comforts, but the values of them are a bit too steep still for an uglier car :lol:

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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Considering he doesn't own an AWD car... Never? [emoji38]

 

And stability control saved my ass at least once that I know of on my Legacy Spec.B, so I'd rather have a RWD car with stability control than an AWD car without.

 

 

The catch here is that a full time AWD system is inherently stable and you have to push it quite a bit before it's misbehaving while a FWD or RWD system isn't and even simple actions like letting off the throttle can throw you into an unplanned direction.

 

 

When the stability control system becomes "too good" then it will also mask the contact with the surface so you as a driver won't get any warning at all and things can get a lot worse when the stability system aren't able to correct for the situation.

 

 

If I feel that I get some contact issues early then I know that it's time to slow down, if I never feel that, then I can be up to quite some speed and then T-bone a truck.

 

 

I can't help wonder how many that puts too much trust in the stability systems and think they can do whatever they like because they never got the warning signs that used to appear but now are hidden by the stability control.

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The catch here is that a full time AWD system is inherently stable and you have to push it quite a bit before it's misbehaving while a FWD or RWD system isn't and even simple actions like letting off the throttle can throw you into an unplanned direction.

 

Yes, this! Last time it snowed I took my FWD car, with very similar all seasons, out. The first thing I noticed is how careful you had to be on the throttle in turns, it's just not forgiving at all.

 

Now lets say the wife, with two screaming monsters, has to drive in this weather. I don't want her to have to worry about this careful throttle rolling, especially when the kids are distracting her. For this reason I've found AWD to be safest for a non-skilled drivers.

 

 

You bring a good point about stability control though, it does mask it a good bit. Though even with stability control on, I've thrown the rear end of the Outback around and did slow down (or stopped horsing around :lol:)

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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Depends on how high you go. Plenty of 400-500 hp cars that do just fine with RWD. The Stinger GT, with 365 hp, is faster in RWD than in AWD, because the extra traction AWD provides off the line can't overcome the lower drive train loss of RWD.

 

 

... in the 1/4 mile, anyway. Or, because Kia has a bit of stutter/delay in launching their AWD (the built-in launch control is broken for AWD, IIRC). OTOH, most of my sprints are 0-30. For the last 3 months, more often in the rain than not. I've really enjoyed launching the Subie in the rain, when RWD/FWD cars with all seasons don't have a prayer of launching. Also, how does the 2018 GT1 with no LSD do off a launch? This is why I'm interested in the AWD Stinger as a dark horse..

 

 

 

I had a rental Ford Edge a couple of years ago. Just the 2.0T - with even a slight bit of rain, there was no traction to be had anywhere. I hit the throttle at a stop light, then turn the wheel 90 degrees left and right with no appreciable change of direction. I just can't go back to that.

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Well the reality is you don't know how many times that AWD has saved your ass.

 

All I can say is all the crashes and spins and upside down in a ditch accidents I have had have been with FWD cars.

 

It may be strange but the more power and better handling cars I have had the less crashes or incidents.

 

Its been the same for motorbikes, I cannot remember how many times I fell off my first bike, a 125cc. Moved to a 400 then a 750 which was incident free.

 

Try a FWD on a gravel road, you think your going slow and still end up in a ditch.

 

So you’ve had multiple accidents where you’ve spun out, flipped over, and ended up in a ditch?

 

Guess what? That probably means you’re an autistic moron who cannot drive. The common denominator in all of your claimed mishaps is you. A champion race car driver can probably drive just about anything right to it’s limits, and a retarded muppet can crash just about anything no matter how capable the vehicle. I’m guessing the latter describes you.

 

The first car I ever owned with my own money was a spooky handling 1994 Z28 Camaro with a 5.7L V8, RWD, and a 6 speed manual. No safety nannies, just a limited slip diff out back. Drove it everywhere, in all weather, on gravel, on pavement, on grass. Never flipped it, bent it, or got stuck. Yeah I had to drive like a sane adult in the winter or really wet roads. I’ve had FWD cars and never had an issue with them either. I had the 2005 LGT, it was OK, but nothing special. I’ve got one 4X4 and it does what it’s supposed to, on the rare occasions I need it, otherwise I am back to RWD V8 powered goodness, except this time the car handles and stops well too.

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The drivers I see on my brief but urban 10 mile drive to work scare me. I would say at least half of them are head down playing with their phones or drinking cofffee or combing their hair when we are stopped at a light. I’m too busy driving to look at them when we are in motion, but I’m pretty sure the prowess and skill you’ve mentioned are dead for the average driver.

 

I’m pretty good about not using my phone or anything when I’m driving - to be a good example for my kids above anything else - but man, it’s a dying breed.

 

Once autonomous cars hit, that’s the end. I suppose you could argue the end is already here with the driver assist features that are slowly but most assuredly chipping away at a driver’s skill.

 

I can drive a stick. I choose not to because I don’t want a base level trim Accord or Sonata or Impreza or whatever you mentioned above.

 

I just want to drive the safest car I can comfortably afford. If that means foregoing the third pedal to make the commute for society as a whole safer, then so be it.

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Accidents happen and the odds of it happening varies considerably depending on what you drive and what tyres you have. Most of my accidents occurred in company cars where your given no choice in tyres or when you can change them.

 

Upside down in a ditch happens on FWD cars on sealed roads with no kerbs and just have fine loose gravel the second you go slightly wide on a corner and off the seal with the tyres on one side of the car only.

 

Wet roads and shit cars lead to accidents. I have owned the same Toyota MR2 Turbo for 20 years and drive it like a manic, not crashed it yet because its RWD on semi-slick tyres with shit loads of grip. This car has no LSD and has ZERO driver aids, it doesn't need them.

 

Lets be honest here, The Subaru 4th Gen is a great car, fast and safe to drive and its not even running the best tyres yet. AWD rocks.

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Accidents happen and the odds of it happening varies considerably depending on what you drive and what tyres you have. Most of my accidents occurred in company cars where your given no choice in tyres or when you can change them.

 

Upside down in a ditch happens on FWD cars on sealed roads with no kerbs and just have fine loose gravel the second you go slightly wide on a corner and off the seal with the tyres on one side of the car only.

 

Wet roads and shit cars lead to accidents. I have owned the same Toyota MR2 Turbo for 20 years and drive it like a manic, not crashed it yet because its RWD on semi-slick tyres with shit loads of grip. This car has no LSD and has ZERO driver aids, it doesn't need them.

 

Lets be honest here, The Subaru 4th Gen is a great car, fast and safe to drive and its not even running the best tyres yet. AWD rocks.

 

Dude I've driven about in a 1994 Ford Ass-Pyre with bald tires with cords sticking out, on gravel, on pavement, on wet roads, on snow and not put it in a ditch. Shit car on tires that wouldn't pass any inspection ever. I will also admit to driving it like a complete jack ass, still never crashed it.

 

You're just bad at driving and want to blame the equipment.

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