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TGV delete HP gains


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I think of it as more of a reliability mod. The TGV system has two motors and two sensors that can get flaky on older cars. To do the TGV mod requires removing the IM, quite a lot of work unless you needed to do it for something else. Some of the horsepower gains I have seen appeared grossly exaggerated. Also, the TGV is an emission control device and that may have implications depending on where you live.
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Once I'm done with my header testing, I plan on installing my TGV deletes and seeing how much power they gain. Adding extra 150cfm is no joke, but I do wonder if there is a bigger restrictor in our engines (heads themselves).

 

Reason I'm coming up with that theory is, I installed an EQL header, no real power gains, installed a 3" turboback exhaust (reducing back pressure by 3.5psi), no real power gains, installed a better flowing intake, no real power gains, this is all on EVOIII 16g@13psi with a perrin inlet.

 

All those mods not working tells me that something else is the real restriction. It could very well be the TGV's themselves too, this is why I'll test deleting them too.

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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Well, if they are failing then it makes sense to go ahead and do the delete mod. Otherwise, it might be better to wait until you have to remove the IM for something else. Sometimes, the issue is transient.
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  • 3 months later...
Anyone know best way to go when installing tgv deletes, as far as cutting wires that went to motors or installing a jumper in the connector left on the car?

 

Just disable them in the tune and tape up the unplugged pigtails to prevent dust/water from getting in.

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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Some people use the TGV channels to display wide band/oil pressure/fuel pressure/additional temps on a BtSsm display.

 

You can just use the tgv addresses, add some math and get a meaningful number.

 

But I would say no real hp gained for 99% of people.

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Upper and lower TGV deletes (not sure if you guys have both on the 4th gen LGTs)

also require fairly extensive tune changes to prevent idle stability, low RPM torque loss, and all kinds of erratic behavior.

 

Its not just TGV related codes that need disabling but also a bunch of timing, enrichment tables that need some tweaks. Im assuming vendor tuners on here have the laundry list of tables defined and know what needs to change - just note its not as simple as disabling a bunch of DTCs in the ROM.

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Once I'm done with my header testing, I plan on installing my TGV deletes and seeing how much power they gain. Adding extra 150cfm is no joke, but I do wonder if there is a bigger restrictor in our engines (heads themselves).

 

Reason I'm coming up with that theory is, I installed an EQL header, no real power gains, installed a 3" turboback exhaust (reducing back pressure by 3.5psi), no real power gains, installed a better flowing intake, no real power gains, this is all on EVOIII 16g@13psi with a perrin inlet.

 

All those mods not working tells me that something else is the real restriction. It could very well be the TGV's themselves too, this is why I'll test deleting them too.

 

I saw 20-30 torquegain when switching to an equal length header on a vf52 after being tuned for it. The only el headers I know that produce neglible power increase after being tuned for it with a smaller turbo are the killer b and Perrin big tube. All other dyno charts I’ve seen suggest an improvement. Killer b really starts shining over 400hp.

 

I am not a tuner and have no real world experience except with my el own header. My hearsay is all from staring at dyno charts.

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I saw 20-30 torquegain when switching to an equal length header on a vf52 after being tuned for it.

 

Do you know if the car was tuned before and after? Reason I ask is, a lot of times the tune is not running optimal timing for it's setup, when you replace a part, all the sudden the tune can be more optimal for the new part.

 

Case in point, going from stock intake to aftermarket intake gained me 26whp/8wtq on the same unrefined tune. After I fine tuned the car on the stock intake, going to aftermarket intake & fine tuning it gained about half of that, and with some intakes nothing at all.

 

The only el headers I know that produce neglible power increase after being tuned for it with a smaller turbo are the killer b and Perrin big tube. All other dyno charts I’ve seen suggest an improvement. Killer b really starts shining over 400hp.

 

I am not a tuner and have no real world experience except with my el own header. My hearsay is all from staring at dyno charts.

 

What would you consider a smaller turbo? My Evo 3 16g with 8cm housing is bigger then even VF39, it had 19.75psi of back pressure at 13.5psi of boost, giving it a 1.46x back pressure to boost ratio. Stock sized stuff generally will be 2-3x.

 

Tomei header that I ran is the same size as Perrin Big Tube, so it might be a little too big for my setup and hence it didn't gain much at all.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping to do my TGV deletes, test and tuning this month.

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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Do you know if the car was tuned before and after? Reason I ask is, a lot of times the tune is not running optimal timing for it's setup, when you replace a part, all the sudden the tune can be more optimal for the new part.

 

Case in point, going from stock intake to aftermarket intake gained me 26whp/8wtq on the same unrefined tune. After I fine tuned the car on the stock intake, going to aftermarket intake & fine tuning it gained about half of that, and with some intakes nothing at all.

 

 

 

What would you consider a smaller turbo? My Evo 3 16g with 8cm housing is bigger then even VF39, it had 19.75psi of back pressure at 13.5psi of boost, giving it a 1.46x back pressure to boost ratio. Stock sized stuff generally will be 2-3x.

 

Tomei header that I ran is the same size as Perrin Big Tube, so it might be a little too big for my setup and hence it didn't gain much at all.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping to do my TGV deletes, test and tuning this month.

 

 

I did a lot of back and forth on headers before I bought one. Spent a lot of time looking at efi logics, cobb, and brentuning dyno charts.

 

I think above 400hp the killer b makes more sense from what I have seen. I didn't notice any torque bumps with killer b at stage 2 levels, spool improvements seem average from what I remember relative to other turbos. Response is not measured though and killer b may be killing it here.

 

I thought perrin big tube had a wider internal diameter then tomei with tomei being close to the smaller end on internal diameter of whats out there. This is all from memory though. I know once I decided killer b wasnt worth it for my direction I was deciding between fullrace, invidia and tomei with tomei being the best bang for buck if you dont mind having a slightly higher crack rate.

 

I think 25psi plus is bigger turbo territory.

 

I JUST REMEMBERED! Killer b showed the best improvement (or equal to fullrace?) in top end with high hp builds, more then 400hp. In those dyno charts low end torque is not really a thing. But in the lower hp builds It was about equal to other headers in the upper rpms when comparing killer b, but their low end torque wasn't much better than stock.

 

I was tuned before and after by dave at cryotune. I probably have logs to compare the header. I know I saw an improvement of something like 20-26 wtq with just the first or second revision I got from him.

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Damn we are derailing a TGV thread... To my excuse, these concepts apply to any mods and I will surely be utilizing them during my TGV deletion testing.

 

I did a lot of back and forth on headers before I bought one. Spent a lot of time looking at efi logics, cobb, and brentuning dyno charts.

 

I think above 400hp the killer b makes more sense from what I have seen. I didn't notice any torque bumps with killer b at stage 2 levels, spool improvements seem average from what I remember relative to other turbos. Response is not measured though and killer b may be killing it here.

 

I've learned that you cannot fully trust all of the before and after comparisons. Since a lot of times a car is not fine tuned, but then gets fine tuned after the part. This makes the part look much better then it really is.

 

I don't want to go as far as saying throwing parts on and testing them without fine tuning as pointless, since most cars don't have tuneable ECU's, but it doesn't tell the whole story and doesn't do the stock parts justice either.

 

The proper way to do it is, have a car get fine tuned on old part, install new part, have the car get fine tuned again. Compare results. But that would require two tuning sessions, which most people can't afford (nor care to bother). This is why I started doing back to back part testing with fine tuning, since I can fine tune for each setup for "free".

 

I thought perrin big tube had a wider internal diameter then tomei with tomei being close to the smaller end on internal diameter of whats out there. This is all from memory though. I know once I decided killer b wasnt worth it for my direction I was deciding between fullrace, invidia and tomei with tomei being the best bang for buck if you dont mind having a slightly higher crack rate.

 

Tomei's are 39mm, which is what bigtube is too. More Tomei pipe diameters here.

 

I think 25psi plus is bigger turbo territory.

 

I would disagree with this, because any turbo can run 25psi, just not efficiently :lol:. I define bigger turbos by their boost to backpressure pressure ratios, a big turbo in my book will have 1:1 pressure ratio. That is if you are boosting 15psi the turbo is only creating 15psi of back pressure.

 

I wish I had a VF40/46 still to test the boost to backpressure ratio on it compared to my current turbo.

 

I JUST REMEMBERED! Killer b showed the best improvement (or equal to fullrace?) in top end with high hp builds, more then 400hp. In those dyno charts low end torque is not really a thing. But in the lower hp builds It was about equal to other headers in the upper rpms when comparing killer b, but their low end torque wasn't much better than stock.

 

This makes sense since a 400HP turbo will have a lower pressure ratio, thus things like the header starts to matter more. I hate the stock header and it's design, but at my 14psi peak and 16G it's simply not the restriction still.

 

I was tuned before and after by dave at cryotune. I probably have logs to compare the header. I know I saw an improvement of something like 20-26 wtq with just the first or second revision I got from him.

 

Do you know if boost was increased? Also if that's the logs you sent me I'll review them and let you know :).

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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