IndySubaruGuy Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Howdy! Purchased a 2003 Legacy L 2.5 auto for my son a few months ago and love the car!! Drives incredible and we are excited for it to snow (yeah I know...) Unfortunately the engine has some problems. We are losing coolant, I believe through the head gasket(s). Additionally getting a little oil into the cooling system. No coolant going into the oil though thankfully. Engine also has a minor knocking, sometimes more noticeable than other times, but never fully goes away, possibly piston slap? The car has about 120K. Because of the knocking, I'm not sure I want to dive into a head gasket replacement and I definitely don't want to get into a rebuild. I am looking for your opinion of the JDM engines from Japan. There are the EJ20's for around $700 or the EJ25's for a little more. Is this a good way to go for a low mileage engine? If I go this route, would you recommend installing new style head gaskets and a timing belt kit before I install it? Appreciate your feedback!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Failing head gaskets on the 2.5i at this mileage is very common. 120K miles is not all that much on a Subaru engine, people often get to 250K or more. Piston slap noise, very typical. Not much of a concern unless it gets much worse. If you can swap an engine, you can do a head gasket job and save money. Parts are cheap. It is labor that's expensive, so if you can DIY, you will save a lot. Just don't keep driving it with failing head gaskets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySubaruGuy Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 Thanks Miles! I can do head gaskets, its just the time involved and having the heads checked/machined, trying to keep my son on the road with as little down time as possible. We are checking coolant level about once a week now, Very slight external oil leaks from the head gaskets. At least two minor overheats now, so not sure a glass/sandpaper head resurface will be sufficient and want the job to last...So a gazillion posts on head gasket brands, what is the latest and greatest these days (2017), (timing set is recent). Thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Suggest the Six Star MLS (multi-layer steel) head gaskets or the updated OEM Subaru head gaskets if you are going to do them. Have the heads gone over, cleaned and resurfaced at a machine shop. They can tell you what's needed. That is the most expensive part of the job. Can you swap a JDM engine? Anything is possible, but it always seems to take more time and money than expected. Then again you might have to find parts for the oddball engine when your son is in the middle of nowhere. You already have a compatible engine that works, just needs a fairly routine repair. Timing belt was due at 105K miles or 105 months. If due, you should do the timing belt service while the engine is out. Not just the belt, but all the components on the timing belt path including idlers and water pump. The normally-aspirated 2.0l JDM motor is weak, like 130 hp. Putting that behind an auto trans will make the car awfully slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumbleRumble Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 One thing to note with MLS after market is that it will reduce compression slightly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySubaruGuy Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Thanks Miles & Rumble!! Timing belt package was done by dealership @ 108K, so no worries there. Thanks for the gasket recommendation & drop in compression note, and there HP warning of the EJ20! I'm still leaning towards a JDM engine. Six Star gasket set on eBay $115, Head bolts $60-$120, machining costs $200-$500, so $375-$735 minimum, a lot of labor and the car is out of service no less than a week. Or buy a JDM for $700-$1000, plus $100 miscellaneous gaskets, etc. and I can change the engine in a weekend, and then I have a spare EJ25 & accessories (needing work) to play with or sell. A little more money, but a lot less labor & down time. That's my thinking at this time.... Question: There is one JDM engine advertised as a "2.5L DOHC AVCS Engine Longblock EJ254". Is the "AVCS" anything to be concerned about, reading it is a variable valve thing? Does my current engine have this and if not, would this engine be compatible as a swap? Thanks guys!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeuEmMaiMai Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 ironically I had white bear Subaru rebuild my 2.5 Legacy Special Edition motor and it cured the piston slap and the head gasket. work was done 3 years ago at 70K and now car has 12OK on it. One thing you will have to MAKE SURE is done is that the heads are sent off to a machine shop. The blocks typically do not warp but you can send them off as well you can do the job while keeping the engine in the car. watch these videos (5 parts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infosecdad Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Make sure you factor in the risk of the JDM engine. I went the headgasket/machined heads route with my '99 outback because I didn't want to do it all again if I found the JDM engine wasn't just a drop in and go. It's easy to get sucked into the thought that you can just buy one, drop it in, add fluids, and be good-to-go. It does work that way for a number of people, but in my experience there is a fair number that got engines that were not working right. Also, many JDM engine have different sensors or emissions systems. I've seen some people get them to work by swapping over their US intake and crank/cam/etc sensors (ie mostly just using the mechanicals). I didn't replace the headbolts when I did mine. Whether or not to replace those can get into a really heated religious debate with both sides adamant they are correct. I can just tell you from my experience that I have done head gaskets four times on subarus and reused the head bolts each time. Was I just lucky? Maybe. If it were me, I would take the engine I know and pull the heads. Find a good machine shop to machine the heads and use the six star MLS gaskets. It's a known set of work, there are a lot of unknowns when going down the JDM engine route. I'm not saying you can't go the JDM route, just wanted to convey my thoughts and experience on it to hopefully give you another perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySubaruGuy Posted October 12, 2017 Author Share Posted October 12, 2017 Thanks Yeu & Info!! Love a forum that is alive and well!! You all rock!! Appreciate your feedback on JDMs and getting the same uneasy feeling after reading posts for a while. I did a JDM in an old Civic 20+ years ago and it was a simple swap, but with all the sensors on cars these days, maybe not as simple anymore! Bummer!! May have found an alternative for the labor, found a local shop who specialize in Subaru's and he will install parts I bring. I just need to call him and "interview" him a bit to feel comfortable. Very reasonable quotes, so maybe buy the six start gaskets and have him do the job. As far as the piston slap, the car is due an oil change and I am running 5w30 Mobile 1. Read a couple of posts saying to go up one or two thicknesses in oil thickness, so maybe I'll go 10W40 or 20w50? Suggestions? I suppose it is worn piston skirts causing the slapping, so piston replacement is long term fix? Thanks again guys, starting to feel better about my direction and again I appreciate to pointing me to stick with the US engine, I'm hearing you;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setnev Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I know it is hard to justify the price of rebuilding the EJ25 when JDM EJ20s are around $600-700 but here is my take from my own personal experience with the JDM EJ20. I test drove an 01 and own an 02 Forester. The 01 I drove had the EJ20. At the time, I was super excited for it because it was JDM, low mileage, and JDM = Awesome. That excitement lasted up until I pulled out of the driveway of the seller. The EJ20 is very lethargic. When I mean lethargic, cut a piece of cardboard the size of your air filter and poke 2 or 3 holes in it and drive it around the block. That's literally what it feels like driving an EJ20. They're great if you want a reliable, worry-free, and extremely fuel efficient engine, but that's because they make no power so people typically can't beat on them too much. My 02 feels like a rocketship compared to the EJ20. Six-star gaskets are great, but a little overpriced in my opinion. I went with Fel-Pro PermaTorque 26415PT gaskets. They're identical to the updated OEM Subaru gaskets. In fact, my buddy who's a Subaru tech swears that Subaru contracts Fel-Pro to make their updated gaskets. You can pick up both for less than $60. Some times Rock Auto will have a sale on them and you can pick them up for around $20 a piece. Last time they ran that sale, I cleared them out because I get jobs pretty frequently doing EJ head gaskets. I know that I'm going to get some shit for saying this, but on NA engines, the head bolts can be reused. Yes, I know the manufacturer recommends replacement, but being a tech myself that has rebuilt many Subaru engines, I've never run into an issue reusing head bolts on any NA engine, including on my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infosecdad Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 I would highly recommend not using Mobile1 in Subaru engines. There seems to be a disagreement between how fast the oil thins out and the tolerances within the engine. Recommend going with Rotella T6 5w-40 or one of many other brands 5w-30 or 5w-40. There are several oil threads if you look for them. I don’t have the time to look at the moment, but I’ll update this post if I get a chance too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndySubaruGuy Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 Thanks Setnev & Infosetdad for your replies! Read a bunch of posts on oil and will be switching to Rotella T6, seems to be the near unanimous favorite for the boxer engines...Probably won't use Mobile 1 again in any of my cars going forward. Also going to stick with my head bolts, seems to be acceptable to most in a stock non-turbocharged engine. So I spoke with the guy with the Subaru repair shop in my area and spoke he with a very strong "Subaru accent". Going to bring him my son's car next Friday for a HG replacement using new style OEM head gaskets, thorough head inspection & repair as needed, re-using the head bolts and pouring in Rotella oil. Very satisfied that the job will be done right with little down time. Thanks again for everyone's replies! You helped answer my question of repair or replace and I am happy to be sticking with my original engine. Next steps on my sonst Legacy: Get the fog lights working, fix the leak & service the rear differential, treat the rust... Love our Subaru!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumbleRumble Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 another route you can take is a rebuilt long block, http://www.enginesus.com/rebuilt-subaru-engines/ for 1.6k you just swap over your accessories and install a timing belt kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setnev Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 another route you can take is a rebuilt long block, http://www.enginesus.com/rebuilt-subaru-engines/ for 1.6k you just swap over your accessories and install a timing belt kit. Seriously? $1695 for a rebuilt engine? I'm gonna start buying junkyard long blocks and rebuilding them for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumbleRumble Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 That's a pretty good deal for a new engine. seeing how a used one are around 1.3k. Before I starting really getting into cars I paid 1.6k for a headgasket job a well know subaru shop. I wish I went with a full rebuilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 That's a pretty good deal for a new engine. seeing how a used one are around 1.3k. Before I starting really getting into cars I paid 1.6k for a headgasket job a well know subaru shop. I wish I went with a full rebuilt. Looks like shipping is an additional $200+. Also, you have to exchange your old engine or pay a $400 core charge. It was not clear if you have to pay extra to ship your old engine back to them, but I don't think that cost is included. Still seems reasonable, just a little more expensive than it appears at first glance. Also, they are machining an old crankshaft and block, resurfacing the heads. Those aren't new parts. You get new pistons, bearings and seals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setnev Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Looks like shipping is an additional $200+. Also, you have to exchange your old engine or pay a $400 core charge. It was not clear if you have to pay extra to ship your old engine back to them, but I don't think that cost is included. Still seems reasonable, just a little more expensive than it appears at first glance. Also, they are machining an old crankshaft and block, resurfacing the heads. Those aren't new parts. You get new pistons, bearings and seals. One could do the same thing with their engine for around $500-700. $1700 for a rebuilt engine, plus $200 shipping and a $400 core charge, that is a spicy price tag to swallow for a car worth almost as much. On a side note, they pay for return shipping on the core, but still, almost 2 g's for a rebuilt engine is hardly justifiable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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