MarkM08 Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 Since the board was so helpful with my AC problem, I would like to raise another issue I am experiencing with my 08 Legacy GT to see if you guys can help. In July 2015 (95k miles on car) my dealer installed brand new tires (Continental Brand) and did an alignment. The old tires drivers side were extremely cupped and the front driver side had steel belts showing on the inside edge. I rotate every other oil change. After a recent rotation on my new set in Oct 2016 (112k miles), the car started up with the same humming noise indicating cupping. There is a very dated thread on this topic here - http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/combatting-front-tire-wear-outer-edges-115527.html? I am wondering if anyone else has experienced this issue and if you were able to correct it and can provide more current specs or information on how you resolved it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldsoda Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 I'm not sure your alignment is in spec... Do you have a readout of the before/after when the dealer did it last time? At any rate, I'd take it to a shop to have the alignment checked. Ask for 0 toe all around. camber should be even side to side in the front, usually -1 or -1.5 degrees or so is nice (rear is non adjustable on factory suspension). Make sure you are keeping your tire pressure right. I tend to check every gas fillup when temps fluctuate a lot, maybe every other gas fill up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derp Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 your alignment is fucked if it's repeating the same issue again. I'd have a competent shop do an alignment. Also, at that mileage I'd check ball joints, tie rods, control arm bushings, etc to see if there's slop in it. I could suck start a snow blower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted December 20, 2016 Share Posted December 20, 2016 ^^ This. Usually cupping indicates an out of spec alignment or severely worn bushing and/or ball joints. GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Stapp's Law: “The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle.” "Simple incompetence is a far more sinister force in the world than evil intent." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkM08 Posted December 23, 2016 Author Share Posted December 23, 2016 coldsoda - thanks for the specs. I will have dealer align to those. GTEASER - I will have them check bushings and ball joints while doing the alignment. Since I use the dealer for everything I'm left wondering why they didn't do that inspection for those last year when they did the alignment. This is my wife's car so it is not ridden hard by any means except when I drive it which is extremely limited. derp - I have come across incompetent dealers. I am in IL but there is one in CO I would never let touch my car ever ---> GROOVE SUBARU. Thanks for your input guys. Merry Xmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 Find a better place then the dealership to get a good alignment done. You may want to call around to a few body shops and see who they recommend for an alignment. I know who I trust... but he's not going to be able to help you...I guess. Where do you live ? 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
covertrussian Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 Before you waste any more money on alignments fix the actual issue. Cupping happens from the tire bouncing up and down. This is either due to worn bushings, worn shocks, or loose suspension bolts. For me, I had major cupping until I replaced the front lower control rearward bushing. If your on the stock bushing I highly suggest getting a good aftermarket one (whiteline or avo). Only then do the alignment 05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg 12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct 00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 I have found that a good alignment shops will tell you what is wrong with your car before they charge you or do the alignment if they find something wrong. Just tell them your history and ask them if they will tell you what is wrong, before you start throwing money at replacing parts. After you replace the part or have them replace it, then have them alignment it. Or may be these day's they will charge you now, but not charge you after you bring it back for the alignment after you have replaced the parts yourself. I don't see why any decent shop would align a car with known bad parts. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkM08 Posted December 25, 2016 Author Share Posted December 25, 2016 I updated my profile to include my location. MaxCapacity since you are on East Coast I don't think you can help me with the alignment shop. I will reach out to local body shops and see who they recommend for good alignment work. That's a good tip! covertrussian - I will add the bushing and loose suspension bolts to the list of items to look at while they have it on the lift. Thanks both for input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkM08 Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 Gentlemen Here are the results from the dealer. I was offered a $1200 front drivers side control arm as the bushing on that side was worn. I declined that offer from the dealer. I told him {based on this thread} about the rearward control arm bushings going bad and he agreed that driver and passenger control arm should be replaced. Those bushings are a buck and a half each so I told him don't do a thing. He is going to price me out for the both rear control arm bushings in the morning. Here are the specs from my current alignment - SEE PICTURE. I told him the TOE should be -1.5 and the camber should be 0.00. He said the machine is set for METRIC which I am basically calling BS on that since we are in America. I told him I am picking up the car tomorrow and don't do any work. I think the specs are non-metric but am worried about toeing in to -1.5. I suspect that is the best thing to do and am looking for feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Specs look pretty good. You confused the specs another member recommended but I highly urge you to not run a camber of -1 or -1.5 degrees. Camber and toe should be as close to zero as possible. Your description leads me to lean towards struts as being the problem but bushings could definitely play a role in the tire wear as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkM08 Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 Specs look pretty good. You confused the specs another member recommended but I highly urge you to not run a camber of -1 or -1.5 degrees. Camber and toe should be as close to zero as possible. Your description leads me to lean towards struts as being the problem but bushings could definitely play a role in the tire wear as well. I concur 08SpecB....the decimal point was off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldsoda Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Specs look pretty good. You confused the specs another member recommended but I highly urge you to not run a camber of -1 or -1.5 degrees. Camber and toe should be as close to zero as possible. Your description leads me to lean towards struts as being the problem but bushings could definitely play a role in the tire wear as well. there is no reason not to run negative camber in the front as long as toe is 0 and it is even side to side. it will not cause any uneven tire wear and will only improve the car's ability to handle around a corner more effectively. Mark - you did get confused with the terms in your post, TOE is what should be 0. Camber can be whatever they want to set that's "within spec" but honestly I'd recommend asking for -1 or even -1.5 if you can get it even on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 -1.5 degrees is going to be out of factory specs. The tolerances are in place to say "it's acceptable to be within these numbers" however, a perfect alignment will be dead center of the specs. The three factors that will cause tire wear is toe, camber and toe out on turns. .8 degrees is the max tolerance allowed to still be "within spec". You should also ask to have the rear toe brought in to zero. Thrust angle looks good so you should track straight down the road but that small amount of toe out will slowly wear the inside of the tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldsoda Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 -1.5 might be out of "factory specs" as I fully understand, but is not out of reach on factory suspension. I do agree that toe should be 0 front and rear. A perfect alignment is one that is exactly what the customer asked for, not one that is exactly what some MFG spec states. Sure, that might be fine for most people, but if you understand suspension and want something completely reasonable outside of "factory spec", any good alignment shop should have no problem doing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rougeben83 Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 your specs are fine, the toe may be a little toed in, but should not explain the premature tire wear youre experiencing. Also, I've run negative camber on the front of my subaru's for almost 10 years now, (zero toe). Its compensates for some of the limitations of a MacPherson strut suspension. The inside tire wear is minimal, even if you only rotate your tires when switching sets for the season. I agree with the others replace whatever worn part there is and then redo your alignment. The rear lower control arm bushings are usually spent on these cars at around 100k, due in part to the design of the rubber bushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkM08 Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 I have a call into him this morning. I will keep you guys posted on how we proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkM08 Posted December 30, 2016 Author Share Posted December 30, 2016 I picked up the car from the dealer. He said that both lower control arm "rear" bushings were shot and he needed until Thursday next week to get them. He said 511.00 out the door to replace and realign. I stopped by Firestone and they said 485.00 out the door and aligned so I am going with them Monday. A question: Since they have both LC arms off the car to replace bushings should I have them do both front and rear bushings on both sides or do you guys recommend don't fix it if it's not broke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
08SpecB_DE Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Do you have aluminum or steel control arms? 500 sounds kinda high to replace a couple bushings and align. The rearward bushings are around 15 a piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rougeben83 Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 They're charging you a lot for the 'labor' of pressing out the rear bushing. I'd find a local independent shop to do this, being a Subaru specialist isn't needed for this job. Worst comes to worse is get a spare set of lower control arms off the forums and bring to a machine shop to press the bushings out yourself. You can get aftermarket poly alk bushings and upgrade at the same time, instead of being stuck with dealer supplied parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
covertrussian Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 Even $500 is way too much for that. OEM rearward bushings are usually $10-20 a pop, but will fail you again in 60k miles or so. I highly suggest getting some whitelines or avo's with caster (they help handling a bunch). Take your arms off, take them to a shop to press them in, should be around $60. Install arms and get it aligned. You don't need the front bushings unless they are shot. When I replaced my front bushings on my other car, NVH increases a bit too much for daily driving. 05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg 12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct 00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkM08 Posted April 18, 2017 Author Share Posted April 18, 2017 I thought I would come back to the thread and give you guys an update. I took the car to a reputable shop I used before but they moved farther away. This was back in Jan 2016. I had them do an oil change and told them the DEALER said the tire was cupped due to bad lower control arm bushings. Reputable shop told me the bushings were fine. I took the car with the intention of buying a new tire and shaving it down through tire rack. Good news is tire rack did not make the same tire and said I would need a whole new set. I was pissed (only have 20k on set) and just decided to have wife drive the car for another 10k with the noise and buy new set. I brought the car in this week for an oil change and rotation and asked the reputable shop if they could come for a test drive. The noise seemed to be getting louder since I hadn't driven car for 3 months. The wrench I did the ride along with told me within 200ft that it was a bearing...WHICH IS WHAT I WAS TELLING THE DEALERSHIP ALL ALONG for a year plus!! Long story short...DRIVER REAR BEARING was smoked. Replaced and now, imagine, NO MORE FRICKING NOISE. My hope is anyone using this board will realize that if a DEALER tells you your tires are cupped when you hear a humming noise at all speeds and that you need a whole lower control arm assembly to the tune of $1,200+, grab your keys and your wallet and do not patronize them one more time. I was almost scammed first by Groove Subaru in Co for an AC and then Gary Lang Subaru in IL for this problem. To all who offered advice on this thread, many thanks. At least I know now about the toe and camber specs on the fronts to prevent uneven wear and will use that knowledge at my next alignment with this shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotYourAvgSpec.B Posted April 19, 2017 Share Posted April 19, 2017 Like most of the others have said... Tire cupping isn't an alignment issue perse, it's worn or broken suspension components... Possibly even a worn out wheel bearing... Alignment issues cause feathering and edge wear Wheel bearing are a common issue with all of the legacy based models, particularly the rears... If you hear something that sounds like intense tire road noise chances are it's a wheel bearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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