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I just may - but its pretty low on my priority list at the moment. Youre insanely rich, do you have extra time too and want to help a guy out? :lol:

 

The only difference should be quantity of composition, aside from viscosity. The -30 will not have as much phosphorus because it meets the SM rating. What the level difference is, as well as what else may be reduced, is what I am curious about. And im just curious how much, if even traceable, the -40 changed.

05' LGT, ZFD Built 5MT, Stage 2 Cryotune 91/E85, 170,000mi running BRotella T6 and Ecoguard S4615 filters.
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Im having trouble figuring out how "Phosphorus" and "Zinc" are different when ZDDP is Zinc dithiophosphate. Is Zinc different from ZDDP?

 

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28070

 

Answers that question and reaffirms my thoughts. I agree with the "pick one and test it to be sure" policy, but I would add that if you are worried, remember "You get what you pay for".

 

I know a good magician never reveals their secrets, but whys everything have to be like a riddle when dealing with chemicals? I didnt want to be an amateur chemist, I just want to take good care of my car.

 

Side question: Anyone going to run that new Mobil1 or whatever that says its good for a whole year!? :confused::eek:

05' LGT, ZFD Built 5MT, Stage 2 Cryotune 91/E85, 170,000mi running BRotella T6 and Ecoguard S4615 filters.
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I know a good magician never reveals their secrets, but whys everything have to be like a riddle when dealing with chemicals? I didnt want to be an amateur chemist, I just want to take good care of my car.

 

I'll bite; because oil composition and the reason for choosing one over an other is absolutely "real" chemistry (and physics), and it's not simple. Most of the things you'll read on car forums are people talking out of their ass about how they like the oil they use. I'd love to see if anyone would even notice if you swap out their oil with another brand.

 

If you just want to take good care of your car, put whatever oil you want in it, and run some UOAs to see how your driving habits, environment, and OCI are serving you. Theoretical discussion and speculations are fun and all, but nothing beats actual measurement.

 

If you're more curious than that, well then it's time to spend the time and effort learning the chemistry and physics behind engine oil and its applications. Like most anything else, there's no "easy answer" to actual understanding.

 

From someone with absolutely no basis in chemistry ;)

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I'll bite; because oil composition and the reason for choosing one over an other is absolutely "real" chemistry (and physics), and it's not simple. Most of the things you'll read on car forums are people talking out of their ass about how they like the oil they use. I'd love to see if anyone would even notice if you swap out their oil with another brand.

 

If you just want to take good care of your car, put whatever oil you want in it, and run some UOAs to see how your driving habits, environment, and OCI are serving you. Theoretical discussion and speculations are fun and all, but nothing beats actual measurement.

 

If you're more curious than that, well then it's time to spend the time and effort learning the chemistry and physics behind engine oil and its applications. Like most anything else, there's no "easy answer" to actual understanding.

 

From someone with absolutely no basis in chemistry ;)

 

Oh, I fully understand its far more complex then these conversations get. Molecular Science is no joke. But I feel the EPA is slowly lowering the quality of oil. If we could get just a little bit of inside knowledge we can make sure we are keeping engines properly lubricated.

 

I think back to when my mom was putting in like a 0w-15 oil because thats what it said on the cap. She thought she was doing everything right, but her engine hasnt been the same since - I dont think it protected anything, or i guess technically it was ran harder then the oil could protect for. But if you always use the most protective oil, no matter what you should be covered, or you did something so bad that even magic oil wouldnt have saved you.

 

I like the mantra "Its better to have it and not need it, then to need it and not have it". You just never know when some chump in an Evo will need a spanking... :icon_evil

05' LGT, ZFD Built 5MT, Stage 2 Cryotune 91/E85, 170,000mi running BRotella T6 and Ecoguard S4615 filters.
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Oh, I fully understand its far more complex then these conversations get. Molecular Science is no joke. But I feel the EPA is slowly lowering the quality of oil.

 

I'm not sure you do... Statements like this that drive me nuts. Yes, I'm sure that environmental regulations will affect the quality of oil, but making blanket claims like they're "lowering the quality of oil" with absolutely no reasonable basis (besides completely unscientific and uncontrolled empirical evidence) just perpetuates pseudoscientific malarkey motivated by emotion, political agenda, etc., which just raises the noise-floor of actual widespread understanding and education.

 

If we could get just a little bit of inside knowledge we can make sure we are keeping engines properly lubricated.

 

What sort of "inside knowledge" are you looking for? It's not like the engineers at Shell have magical trade secret that lets them know how "good" their oil is. I'm sure there's trade secrets/IP behind the recipes/process, and some experiential knowledge that they have from working in the industry, but honestly, formulating oils and checking their effectiveness involves a lot more than just some chemistry/physics/process knowledge (all of which strictly education-related, nothing "secret" there). They still need to extensively test it to get an idea of how it performs under various conditions, but only test enough to be economical so they don't sink exorbitant amounts of money into development costs.

 

Protection is only one performance metric (and a somewhat "soft" one, at that). Of course you have others like fuel efficiency, emissions, longevity, price, etc., and all of these also depend on what type of engine the oil is being run in, what conditions the engine is put through, etc. There's no black-or-white answer for what oil is the best for anyone's specific application. The typical trends of what people use are good guidelines, but the only way to be sure is to do your own analysis to see how your oil handles your driving conditions, in your car (have I made my point? :lol:).

 

I don't have enough of a handle on chemistry, engine dynamics, etc., to explain definitively the magical riddle of what chemicals serve what purpose in an engine, and from pretty much every oil thread I've read, neither does most everyone else. Those that do can only explain so much before an extensive prerequisite knowledge is required. My point again is that it's only possible to simplify an extraordinarily complex subject so much before the explanation is no longer valid.

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I'm not sure you do... Statements like this that drive me nuts. Yes, I'm sure that environmental regulations will affect the quality of oil, but making blanket claims like they're "lowering the quality of oil" with absolutely no reasonable basis (besides completely unscientific and uncontrolled empirical evidence) just perpetuates pseudoscientific malarkey motivated by emotion, political agenda, etc., which just raises the noise-floor of actual widespread understanding and education.

 

 

 

What sort of "inside knowledge" are you looking for? It's not like the engineers at Shell have magical trade secret that lets them know how "good" their oil is. I'm sure there's trade secrets/IP behind the recipes/process, and some experiential knowledge that they have from working in the industry, but honestly, formulating oils and checking their effectiveness involves a lot more than just some chemistry/physics/process knowledge (all of which strictly education-related, nothing "secret" there). They still need to extensively test it to get an idea of how it performs under various conditions, but only test enough to be economical so they don't sink exorbitant amounts of money into development costs.

 

Protection is only one performance metric (and a somewhat "soft" one, at that). Of course you have others like fuel efficiency, emissions, longevity, price, etc., and all of these also depend on what type of engine the oil is being run in, what conditions the engine is put through, etc. There's no black-or-white answer for what oil is the best for anyone's specific application. The typical trends of what people use are good guidelines, but the only way to be sure is to do your own analysis to see how your oil handles your driving conditions, in your car (have I made my point? :lol:).

 

I don't have enough of a handle on chemistry, engine dynamics, etc., to explain definitively the magical riddle of what chemicals serve what purpose in an engine, and from pretty much every oil thread I've read, neither does most everyone else. Those that do can only explain so much before an extensive prerequisite knowledge is required. My point again is that it's only possible to simplify an extraordinarily complex subject so much before the explanation is no longer valid.

 

:lol::rolleyes:

 

Zinc is good for our engines. Zinc is bad for catalytic converters. The amount of Zinc allowed in SM rated oils was lowered, that is why Shell had to come out with a new formula of T6 to keep SM rating. Is there another reason to drop the zinc? Because this is what the oil industry is telling me.

 

http://www.utterpower.com/epa-pushing-to-remove-all-the-zinc-out-of-lube-oil/

 

The more wear that can put on the engine, the shorter it will last. If you can decrease wear, you increase longevity.

05' LGT, ZFD Built 5MT, Stage 2 Cryotune 91/E85, 170,000mi running BRotella T6 and Ecoguard S4615 filters.
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I just may - but its pretty low on my priority list at the moment. Youre insanely rich, do you have extra time too and want to help a guy out? :lol:

 

The only difference should be quantity of composition, aside from viscosity. The -30 will not have as much phosphorus because it meets the SM rating. What the level difference is, as well as what else may be reduced, is what I am curious about. And im just curious how much, if even traceable, the -40 changed.

I posted links for a pre and post change oil tests, so that information is there.

 

SC

1994 Legacy MI

2008 Legacy GT specB

2023 Crosstrek Limited

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I posted links for a pre and post change oil tests, so that information is there.

 

SC

 

Of the 5w30 t6? And the 2017 cf-4 5w-40?

05' LGT, ZFD Built 5MT, Stage 2 Cryotune 91/E85, 170,000mi running BRotella T6 and Ecoguard S4615 filters.
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I think back to when my mom was putting in like a 0w-16 oil because thats what it said on the cap. She thought she was doing everything right, but her engine hasnt been the same since - I dont think it protected anything, or i guess technically it was ran harder then the oil could protect for. But if you always use the most protective oil, no matter what you should be covered, or you did something so bad that even magic oil wouldnt have saved you.

 

I'm guessing you mean 0w-20 oil, and I'm curious to know what you mean by things haven't been the same since running that oil.

 

It's true that there is a push for improved fuel economy, but wear isn't being sacrificed. With each new API category such as SM, SN, standards are getting more and more strict. The same goes for ILSAC categories like GF-5, and the upcoming GF-6 standard.

 

In order to pass these tests, the oils have to be pretty darn good. A junk oil won't meet ILSAC GF-5 and API SN standards, it just won't.

 

The same is true for 0w-20 oils in my opinion, no matter which one you choose, they're all going to be good. These oils have to be good, because you can't have a 0w-20 oil shear down to a 0w-15/10 oil, the way my non-turbo subaru (and all other subarus) always shear down 5w-30 oils to a 5w-20 oil.

 

I mentioned this in the thread I posted earlier. I was very active on bobistheoilguy.com from 2004-2009. Back then people were obsessed with german castrol, and molybdenum. People wanted as much molybdenum in their oil as humanly possible because it creates a barrier on metal that prevents wear. At the same time, german castrol (GC) was probably the #1 oil that people loved.. And GC had ZERO moly in it..

 

There are countless ways to formulate a quality oil, you can't focus too much on one aspect like zddp or zinc.

 

It's also worth mentioning that these $30 VOA/UOA's people have done don't show everything. These oil analyses can't show non-metallic and ashless additives in an oil.

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I'm guessing you mean 0w-20 oil, and I'm curious to know what you mean by things haven't been the same since running that oil.

 

It's also worth mentioning that these $30 VOA/UOA's people have done don't show everything. These oil analyses can't show non-metallic and ashless additives in an oil.

 

I know there likely are other factors, but the engine has a severe tick that it developed shortly after using that oil. The tick was noticeable all the time even with fresh 0w-20 oil and with T6 it is only noticeable in specific RPM's/speed. Im thinking the oil wasnt enough protection for an engine that may have had a developing issue. That expedited the problem. Im not sure if its a major problem, the engine seems fine otherwise.

 

Am I incorrect in assuming that if the engine makes ticking noises with an oil that it didnt have before, there is a good chance that oil is not protecting the engine? I know some valve trains are noisy (my Kawi's are), but it does quiet down when I use what I would consider a "quality" oil over a "low grade, cheap" oil. Whlie valve noise may not be an actual indicator of wear protection, when I added a "better" oil, should it not have quieted down the valves again (silent before)? Yes, the only way to know if its protecting is to get a UOA - but cant there be inferences?

 

I know that OA's dont show everything, but like with the link on ZDDP and Zinc/Phos content - it can give you a good guesstimation of whats in it and if it is what you are looking for. Then, as others have suggested, it also shows if it is providing adequate protection for your engine in your conditions. And while zinc, phosphorus, and ZDDP are not the only additives to be worried about, they are ones currently being attacked by regulation. Also we are told that while some additives are being reduced, the replacements are just as good, and that just doesnt seem to be true per the last link I posted.

 

If there exist and oil that protects under the harshest of conditions - what would be the harm in grandma using it? Compared to the wannabe Dominic Toretto's using an oil rated for their car, but in a 0w-20 or so.

 

Or should I be looking at it more like 'The oil may protect adequately, but maybe only for 5 miles before needing changed. Some oils hold up longer' But then im back to, why not just use the oil that protects adequately, for the longest period?

 

Maybe im just a car conspiracy theorist :hide:

05' LGT, ZFD Built 5MT, Stage 2 Cryotune 91/E85, 170,000mi running BRotella T6 and Ecoguard S4615 filters.
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Depends on where the tick was coming from, lifter tick or piston slap. A thicker oil will reduce piston slap. I don't think either one is that bad to be honest.

 

But anyways, here's what it all boils down to with me.

 

If people were to do uoa's with rotella t6 5w-40 vs another synthetic oil, 5w-40, whatever, I don't think the differences would be significant. Keeping in mind that having high fuel dilution/low flashpoint can cause some pretty bad reports. I say that because I saw a pretty bad mobil 1 5w-30 report on here, but it has the lowest flashpoint number I've ever seen before, 290F.

 

When you look at uoa's, it's important to consider the total wear metals in terms of ppm every 1k, to maintain perspective.

 

I was going to type up a long detailed reply, but I'm just far too lazy for that right now.

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If you want to geek out on oil here is a very controversial blog where the writer tests oils. some people think he's right on, a LOT of people thinks he's nuts.

It's the endless internet oil debate.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

 

BTW, Blackstone Labs says there is no difference between Synthetic and Conventional in their testing, and in fact virtually no difference in oils period....:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/July-1-2014.php

"I wanted more data, though, so I turned to an engine that we

have more data for -- the naturally aspirated Subaru EJ25

engine. Once the data was culled for wear-in samples, coolant

leaks, and air filtration problems, Figure 3 is what turned

up.

Not much difference here either. Aluminum averaged the

same for all the oils. There was a little bit of variation in the

copper and lead readings for the Subaru, but 1-2 ppm is still

not a significant difference. Steel wear (iron) was also a bit

more spread out across the brands in the Subaru (Figure 4),

but that’s probably because we had more oils to choose from

with that engine. These differences are extremely small

though, varying by less than 0.001 ppm per mile. "

Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine.

"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"

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If you want to geek out on oil here is a very controversial blog where the writer tests oils. some people think he's right on, a LOT of people thinks he's nuts.

It's the endless internet oil debate.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

 

Thanks, that is one heck of a read. That should keep me busy for awhlie :lol:

 

From a quick glance at the link, I found this:

 

"As I’ve said before, there are no BAD oils here. They all will generally work well enough in most applications. But, some do clearly provide a higher level of reserve “extra protection capability” than others. Of course you can decide for yourself, how much reserve “extra protection capability” is good enough for your needs."

 

This is generally my conclusion as well - Im just looking to find which one has that extra capabilities, and why it is. But I still read "generally work" and "Well enough" - that means that there are quantifiable differences. While there may be zero difference in oils for the average consumers needs, Professional level race cars likely do not use Dino, or anything off the shelf. I know, thats getting into extreme cases and they have their reasons - but that just shows that for those needing or just wanting the most protection, there is a difference.

 

Its also one reason I like a short OCI. If for whatever reason I am unable to get a change done when I like to, I will be good for awhile until I can. If I am pushing my OCI out as far as I can, then I pass it, I could be doing harm with any further driving. Ive screwed up engines in the past going for "well enough" - I'm not going down that road again.

05' LGT, ZFD Built 5MT, Stage 2 Cryotune 91/E85, 170,000mi running BRotella T6 and Ecoguard S4615 filters.
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Race cars also tend to get a complete engine rebuild every race, with fresh oil.

 

How long do you expect to suffer from analysis paralysis?

 

While the advice here is sometimes contradictory, you have people that have been dealing with these cars for 12 years, and they are pretty much all suggesting the same thing - Don't use Mobil 1, use an oil with extra Zinc, and check your oil level every week.

 

SC

1994 Legacy MI

2008 Legacy GT specB

2023 Crosstrek Limited

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It's totally understandable to want to use the best oil possible, or whatever oil offers more protection than the others. To me, the best oil you could buy would probably be Red Line. Amsoil oils are usually pretty heavily fortified too, lots of additives. The thing is... The uoa's I've seen from boutique, high priced oils are no better than any other synthetic or conventional oil.

 

If your car doesn't have a catalytic converter, rotella 5w-40 seems to be a good choice too. I would never ever run a hdeo in a car that has a catalytic converter though. My $800 catalytic converter is far more important to me than running an oil that saves me 1-2 parts per million of aluminum/iron every 5,000 miles.

 

So on paper these oils look much better, they're packed with additives.. But the uoa's they produce are nothing special. I'm not just talking about red line and amsoil, you could say the same about companies like motul and royal purple too from what I've seen.

 

I also want to stress that like blackstone suggests, when comparing reports and oils, to me any differences 5ppm or less are super insignificant. Blackstone might give a different opinion, 5ppm or so is just mine.

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Gotcha, thanks. Anti drain valve too I assume? Even with it, it looks like I can get the WIX a little cheaper. Im not a JDMAF kind of guy :lol:. But its always good to have and know options. Plus, I really wanted the WIX in a taller configuration, and it loos like the RX-8 filter is the way to get that. And now to send off a UOA...

 

If you buy them by the case at your local Mazda dealer you're likely to get better pricing than online. Remember it's not just filtering, which Wix is good at, but also the bypass valve relief pressure. The RX-8 TY filters match our system, like the old OEM TY filters did (and blue HW OEM filters do), but a bit more capacity and that JDMAF feel :)

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If you buy them by the case at your local Mazda dealer you're likely to get better pricing than online. Remember it's not just filtering, which Wix is good at, but also the bypass valve relief pressure. The RX-8 TY filters match our system, like the old OEM TY filters did (and blue HW OEM filters do), but a bit more capacity and that JDMAF feel :)

 

True, but the WIX XP also have the 23PSI bypass setting, and filter media specifically for synthetics. http://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7400188&cc=1430733&jsn=421. And I dont think the Mazda stealership has a cool free barista like Subaru does :cool::lol:

 

Although the Mazda one is paper media... and that is better... :spin:

05' LGT, ZFD Built 5MT, Stage 2 Cryotune 91/E85, 170,000mi running BRotella T6 and Ecoguard S4615 filters.
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  • 1 year later...

Any updates on the new T6 5W-30 or 5W-40? Need to change my oil soon.

Has anyone tried Chevron 5W-40?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Chevron-Delo-400-XSP-Synthetic-5W40-Motor-Oil-1-gal/20896087

 

Used Castrol Edge 0W-40 last oil change, have only had to top it off (.25qt) once in 4K miles - same as most other oils I've used.

Since I plan on selling my car soon, I'll probably just use Castrol Edge again.

Friends don't let friends drink cheap beer.
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