jersdunz Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachariahc Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 You're already too far into tearing it down but. I recently took my cam bolts loose by leaving the belt and all components on and jamming the flywheel. I used the 10mm hex and a breaker bar and had no "problems" applying slow heavy torque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 You're already too far into tearing it down but. I recently took my cam bolts loose by leaving the belt and all components on and jamming the flywheel. I used the 10mm hex and a breaker bar and had no "problems" applying slow heavy torque. Yea, I probably should of done that myself, live and learn I guess... Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jersdunz Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Those bolts get locked down to the point of absurdity.. I couldn't believe how tight mine were Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 Those bolts get locked down to the point of absurdity.. I couldn't believe how tight mine were Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk Yea, I can't believe my impact wouldn't even move them... Its the 1/2" Klutch similar to this one (If I remember correctly its the 900ft/lbs reversing one - not sure if they even make it anymore). Any other bolt on the car it could remove with out even phasing it. Even the crusty and rusty exhaust heat shield, and manifold to head exhaust bolts. http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200649175_200649175 It could even remove 1-1/2" diameter lug lugs off of my Deuce and a half I had a couple years ago without a problem. I wonder if it can't reach peak torque because of the 10mm allen heads on the bolt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Unless you have a clever way to hold the cams rigidly, there is probably too much slack in the system to take much advantage of the impact. Those bolts seem to respond best to a slow and steady high torque, with a good tool bit and a long breaker bar. When they go, they will let loose with a bang but the torque level needed to get there can be really high. By welding a nut on, you are partially breaking the head free because of the heat and post-weld shrinkage, which is, I suspect, why you see them come off pretty easily in the video. Zip. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted February 22, 2017 Author Share Posted February 22, 2017 Unless you have a clever way to hold the cams rigidly, there is probably too much slack in the system to take much advantage of the impact. Those bolts seem to respond best to a slow and steady high torque, with a good tool bit and a long breaker bar. When they go, they will let loose with a bang but the torque level needed to get there can be really high. By welding a nut on, you are partially breaking the head free because of the heat and post-weld shrinkage, which is, I suspect, why you see them come off pretty easily in the video. Zip. . . That video was slick, only downside is I don't own a welder. Think heating the bolts with a map torch for a few seconds will help? I know heating for too long could cause damage to the cams, just wondering if you've done this in past experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) you can't get the concentrated heat you need with a torch. Of any kind. By the time the core of the bolt head was glowing, your cam gears would be either a) melted (for the plastic ones) b) on fire (for the oil filled intake VVT ones) To answer your question, I've so far always got them off with a breaker bar (touch wood). But having done plenty of welding, it works roughly like this. With any kind of electric welding, the intense local heat expands the metal; since it has to go somewhere, it distorts and is driven into whatever open space it can find, typically thickening compared to the surrounding metal. Once it cools, it still remains thicker, so it has to shrink in the constrained directions to account for conservation of volume. That is what will loosen the head on the bolt. It is also what causes warping and puckers in almost everything you arc weld if you don't take care with welding patterns and corrections as you go. Edited February 23, 2017 by birkhoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todayzbrick16 Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Timing belt, vise grip trick worked for mine. Bought the company 23 stuff just in case but didn't need them. Did end up going with the TIC bolts with hex head instead of the torx security type head even though my original s were in perfect shape. Just a thought. Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 Build Update: Finally was able to get a decent amount of work done on the teardown yesterday. Finishing up the semester at school the past two months has been really rough and not having any free time to drive to the cities to work on the car. Both heads are off of the car and came off fairly easy. There was some small sand like grit on the passenger side head and in the cam journals. They aren't scored too bad so hopefully they can be polished out and are still reusable. The cylinder bores look surprisingly really good! They still have a nice cross hatch and only minor scoring that should line hone out on cylinder number 4. For the new motor, I still cant decide which direction to go with it.. I found a basically brand new motor for sale with a new oem ej257 short block with a pair of d25 heads that been gone through and redone. It is also being sold with an sti oil pump, motor mounts, and a new timing belt kit and a few other extras. Buying a new shortblock from subaru is roughly $1800-2k depending on where its bough and with shipping. I'm really not sure how much machine work will cost on my current case halves and heads. I'd assume at least 1k at a bare minimum for everything, but could be more or it could be less. Sorry to be long winded with this post. I think currently the previous option for the motor is what im leaning towards for the car the most. It would allow for the car to be driveable in a much shorter time frame. I also found a guy very local to me selling a vf52 from his 2012 wrx with under 5k on it because his car got unfortunately totaled out. I think a stock rebuild with a vf52 and some other minor mods, downpipe, intake, tune, etc would make for a nice daily driver friendly setup and keep the old motor to rebuild overtime... Thats it for now, some photos of the project to follow this post. Most likely I will have the motor completely town down and the case halves split over the next day or so! Thanks all! Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 Bunch of photos the the teardown! Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 Those cam journals look a bit too raw for my tastes. - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 Those cam journals look a bit too raw for my tastes. Yea, im thinking the same thing, the passenger side head had alot more wear on the journals than the driver side. Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 You can get away with around 500$ of machine shop work if you do the hone yourself. I bought a flex hone for my cylinders. However your walls look a bit worse than mine. I believe line hone is for crank journals. Not exactly necessary unless your pushing high rpms, or big hp. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Or you can get away with $0 of machine shop labor if you do it all yourself Check out my (re)built thread if you're curious. I also used a flex-hone for my block and it worked great. One of my cylinders had a large gauge in it (my fault) and honing the crap out of that cylinder more-or-less completely took the gauge out. It's not the most correct way to do it, but the 7.5k miles I've put on it says it's "good enough". My gauge was much worse than your scoring looks, so I'd bet money that a flex-hone will work for you. Plenty-o-pics in my rebuild thread. If you rebuild the block instead of just buying a new one, go to Crawford Performance for new OEM pistons. They're brand-spanking new and only cost $25 each. Send me a PM if you want my OEM cam bolts. They came out easily and are still fully functional. I'm thinking $10 for all four would cover flat-rate shipping (assuming you're in the US) and the inconvenience of waiting in line at the post office. Edited May 19, 2017 by StkmltS My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted May 19, 2017 Author Share Posted May 19, 2017 Or you can get away with $0 of machine shop labor if you do it all yourself Check out my (re)built thread if you're curious. I also used a flex-hone for my block and it worked great. One of my cylinders had a large gauge in it (my fault) and honing the crap out of that cylinder more-or-less completely took the gauge out. It's not the most correct way to do it, but the 7.5k miles I've put on it says it's "good enough". My gauge was much worse than your scoring looks, so I'd bet money that a flex-hone will work for you. Plenty-o-pics in my rebuild thread. If you rebuild the block instead of just buying a new one, go to Crawford Performance for new OEM pistons. They're brand-spanking new and only cost $25 each. Send me a PM if you want my OEM cam bolts. They came out easily and are still fully functional. I'm thinking $10 for all four would cover flat-rate shipping (assuming you're in the US) and the inconvenience of waiting in line at the post office. Thanks man for the info! Ill take a look at your rebuild thread and crawford's website for new pistons. I'd assume they sell new rods also? Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StkmltS Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Thanks man for the info! Ill take a look at your rebuild thread and crawford's website for new pistons. I'd assume they sell new rods also? Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk For their builds they use new assembled shortblocks from Subaru, and swap out the new OEM pistons with aftermarket forged pistons. Then they sell the OEM pistons as new "take-outs". I don't think they sell rods like they sell pistons. So if a successful motor builder starts 9 out of 10 "motor builds" with a new assembled OEM shortblock (per their website), what does that suggest most of us on here should do? Bingo! Unless you really want the experience of rebuilding your motor, it almost always makes more financial sense to just buy a new SB from Subaru. My DiySB rebuild Got Misfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted May 19, 2017 Author Share Posted May 19, 2017 For their builds they use new assembled shortblocks from Subaru, and swap out the new OEM pistons with aftermarket forged pistons. Then they sell the OEM pistons as new "take-outs". I don't think they sell rods like they sell pistons. So if a successful motor builder starts 9 out of 10 "motor builds" with a new assembled OEM shortblock (per their website), what does that suggest most of us on here should do? Bingo! Unless you really want the experience of rebuilding your motor, it almost always makes more financial sense to just buy a new SB from Subaru. I completely agree with you. The only reason I'd like to completely rebuild my shortblock is to utilize aftermarket rod and main bearings (acl) so the dreaded bearing failure doesn't, or at least reduce the chance of it happening again to the motor. But by the time I have my case halfs cleaned up and buy a new crank, pistons, rods, etc a new sb from Subaru would save alot of time and hassle and just sell the sb i have to someone that wants to do a forged rebuild... I still can't decide what direction to go with this damn thing... Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Aftermarket parts don't necessarily trump OEM. The fit and finish on stock parts is of a very high standard. The use of `graded parts' to hit clearance targets, such as A/B grade pistons and 0/1/2 grade bearing shells give a build on the shortblock that is difficult for a machine shop to beat, even a very good one, using aftermarket parts. If your power target is reasonable, a stock SB (as almost everyone will say) is one of the best options. Push the power limits, then everything changes. Somewhere in the middle?; forged pistons are popular. This explains the Crawford spec. Your parts don't look that bad. A new crank and pistons,* good clean up and hone, plus a couple of sets of bearing shells should get you pretty much back to stock on the SB. The cam bores can be cleaned up by cutting the caps and honing. This is all pretty standard stuff for a machine shop that has seen a few Subaru engines. * I agree with StkmltS that Crawford is your best option for stock pistons. You can't beat $25x4 if they are still available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 Last night I got the shortblock completely disassembled and the diagnosis of the motor failure was a spun rod bearing on cylinder number 3. I finished late last night and haven't had a chance to take a bunch of photos of everything (will follow in the next week or so) but over all the case halfs will need a slight hone job maybe to the next size over, but not much at all. On a side note when me and my buddy removed the wrist pins it was a snap! We pulled the plugs in the block with a 14mm allen key (picked up a set at harbor freight for 10$) 2 plugs in the front and 2 on the bell housing side) and they worked like a charm. But we removed the outer wrist pin clips on each cylinder and from the opposite side we used a 3/8" extension that was probably 9" long and a rubber mallet to gently tap out the wrist pins in the opposite direction. They slid out with ease and only had to slightly rotate the motor to have the adjacent rods clear. Couldn't of been any easier! I can try to draw a diagram of what we did if it doesn't make sense. But for example to remove the wrist pin on cylinder #3 we went through the plug hole for cylinder #1 (which the rod was out of the way) and it was a clear shot to cylinder #3 and just tapped out the wrist pin. Pretty neat trick that my buddy came up with! I'll upload a photo of what is left of the rod bearing from cylinder #3 compairing it to a good bearing. Its only a partial half and the other half is completely gone. Now the fun begins on figuring out what to do! My buddy is still convincing me to do a forged build like previously mentioned and shoot for a 400awhp goal with a little room to grow to maybe 450awhp in the future.. Decisions....decisions... What do you guys think? Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted May 20, 2017 Author Share Posted May 20, 2017 Failed rod bearing Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth SpecB Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Failed rod bearing Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk LMAO!! I couldn't help but laugh at this, because it's soo true! Good work! I would have used a wooden dowel to knock out the wrist pins because you can risk scoring the rod bushings. I would double check them to see if they are good if you plan on reusing those rods. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 Ya, that would cause a little rod knock. The 'good' shell also looks like it is down to the copper. Were their oiling issues on this engine? How did the mains look? If you have not built one of these motors before, a good strategy would be to rebuild what you have there to stock. You'll learn a lot and you can keep the cost way down. That way, if there are problems (and there are ALWAYS problems with a rebuild of this complexity; usually, but not always, fixable) you aren't going to blow up a bunch of expensive parts just to find yourself back where you started. Once the first rebuild is a success and you have some confidence, take the other block mentioned in the first post and gather parts for a forged build. Your goals will be clearer at that point. And since everything attached to the SB will be swappable over to the new platform, you really won't be that much behind $$-wise. `Do-it-once-and-do-it-right' doesn't translate well to these engines, in my mind. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the successful, reliable, high-power builds reported here tend to involve experienced builders/owners that have worked their way up to it. Not always on the Subaru platform, but something of similar complexity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxspeed3 Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 Ya, that would cause a little rod knock. The 'good' shell also looks like it is down to the copper. Were their oiling issues on this engine? How did the mains look? If you have not built one of these motors before, a good strategy would be to rebuild what you have there to stock. You'll learn a lot and you can keep the cost way down. That way, if there are problems (and there are ALWAYS problems with a rebuild of this complexity; usually, but not always, fixable) you aren't going to blow up a bunch of expensive parts just to find yourself back where you started. Once the first rebuild is a success and you have some confidence, take the other block mentioned in the first post and gather parts for a forged build. Your goals will be clearer at that point. And since everything attached to the SB will be swappable over to the new platform, you really won't be that much behind $$-wise. `Do-it-once-and-do-it-right' doesn't translate well to these engines, in my mind. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the successful, reliable, high-power builds reported here tend to involve experienced builders/owners that have worked their way up to it. Not always on the Subaru platform, but something of similar complexity. The mains looked suprisingly good, not much wear on them (ill post photos soon) when im back in the cities next week over memorial day weekend. Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacylarsa Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 It's a really nice thread about rebilding the engine, and yes, I'm in the same situation.. Skickat från min SM-C115 via Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now