Andrew's DiySB Rebuild

[Tehnation]

I understand that temp changes have an effect, but are you guys running things through a formula when taking measurements or something? Plus, you are talking about a couple degrees vs a couple hundred degree difference between a cold motor and one at operating temp.

 

We are talking about keeping temp constant for measuring tools such as micrometer and bore gage. The more accurate the tool, the more sensitive they are to changes in environment. Nothing to do with hot/cold motor. Everything to do with the precision of the instruments used.

[Tehnation]

FWIW, I've found that careless handling of measuring tools makes a bigger difference than a few degrees of ambient, as long as the latter is stable. Eg: bore gauges. Unless you have a setting ring (which I am pretty sure you do not -- nobody does) then you will be going back and forth and back multiple times to check against your micrometer. Setting with a micrometer means you have to handle the measuring head, and there you start to get drift. Since we are not professional machinists, we are slow and klutzy at this, which makes the drift worse. Use a glove to cut down thermal transfer. You will know if things are working if you get repeatable measurements that are sensible relative to factory specs. If you can achieve this pretty quickly, then you have a natural talent and the rest of the build is going to be great!

 

You also get what you pay for as well! Top grade equipment like Mitutoyo costs $$$, but is more accurate within varying environments. So that kind of stuff is best to borrow from people that invested in quality equipment. Other's who don't have access to them have to make do with something in their price range, basically make the best of what you have.

[BarManBean]

We are talking about keeping temp constant for measuring tools such as micrometer and bore gage. The more accurate the tool, the more sensitive they are to changes in environment. Nothing to do with hot/cold motor. Everything to do with the precision of the instruments used.

 

I understand that. What what is the formula to account for measuring differences based on temperature? There would be a different formula for every single part due to mass and material differences.

 

Sounds a bit ridiculous for a DIY build (impossible). In a temperature / humidity controlled factory that pumps out motors? Sure, make everything the same. But honestly I don't see how you could possibly negate / account for temp / humidity differences in an at-home build.

 

Unless I'm missing something?

 

I agree 100% that the biggest factor is the user. There is a learned skill in properly using feeler gauges and a micrometer.

[StkmltS]

Look at me mom, I'm getting good at multi-quote!

 

I understand that temp changes have an effect, but are you guys running things through a formula when taking measurements or something? Plus, you are talking about a couple degrees vs a couple hundred degree difference between a cold motor and one at operating temp.

Heck no man, formula sucks! NASCAR rules! Oh, the other kind of formula.

At this level of DIY-ness I think formulas are a little overkill. I don't have a climate controlled clean room to work in, but I'll monitor the temperature and regulate the humidity anyways. That's a start. It may be on the edge of overkill (or severely inadequate if that's how you choose to look at it), but it beats inspecting different components on different days, at different temperatures and humidity levels (even then I think I'd be fine). We're talking thousandths of an inch, not tenths (of a thousandth).

 

FWIW, I've found that careless handling of measuring tools makes a bigger difference than a few degrees of ambient, as long as the latter is stable. Eg: bore gauges. Unless you have a setting ring (which I am pretty sure you do not -- nobody does) then you will be going back and forth and back multiple times to check against your micrometer. Setting with a micrometer means you have to handle the measuring head, and there you start to get drift. Since we are not professional machinists, we are slow and klutzy at this, which makes the drift worse. Use a glove to cut down thermal transfer. You will know if things are working if you get repeatable measurements that are sensible relative to factory specs. If you can achieve this pretty quickly, then you have a natural talent and the rest of the build is going to be great!

Careful handling of measuring tools (including torque wrenches) is critical, but AIN'T NO WAY that I'm gonna use gloves to minimize thermal transfer to my micrometer! You're absolutely correct that the heat from my hands will/can temporarily change the physical properties of the gauge, but I'm rebuilding a mass-produced Subaru motor, not a satellite. You are absolutely correct though, there's just no way that I'm taking it to that extreme.

 

Someone (I think) offered you a set of OEM pistons. So far I have bought two sets off this forum, brand new pulls for $100 all in, pins and clips. Just have to source rings*. There's a big savings for you right off the bat, if you are already committed to stock pistons. Grab that oil cooler that BBM offered, unless you plan to reuse yours, in which case don't, and save yourself another $150 or so (new is about $225 right now). With some discipline and patience, I can imagine trimming $1K off your budget. That could generate some goodwill that would make purchasing a new set of rad hoses and belts after the car is running a little easier to justify.

 

* I have two A-grade pistons I'd be willing to throw into the project for $50, but the shipping from Canada would be another $50 and then one month wait for shipping/customs. Better if you can find a set of what you need stateside.

I think LouzGT is the only one who offered pistons, and his are JE 100mm forged (pretty far from OEM). I think that may have been in my WTB thread. I'll add you to my list of potential piston suppliers but my timeline probably means I'll need to buy elsewhere.

 

I'll eventually clean up my budget and put the full list in one of my posts. I welcome the criticism, but I highly doubt anyone will be able to cut out anything close to $1k. It will be fun to talk about.

 

Measuring is an art (didn't someone say this already in this thread?) Probably best to just get started and see how it goes. In the context of the kind of rebuilds we are discussing here, operator error is much more likely to be a problem than temp control, so long as you are working at steady `room temp'.

Amen. I couldn't agree more.

 

You also get what you pay for as well! Top grade equipment like Mitutoyo costs $$$, but is more accurate within varying environments. So that kind of stuff is best to borrow from people that invested in quality equipment. Other's who don't have access to them have to make do with something in their price range, basically make the best of what you have.

 

I just ordered two new Tekton torque wrenches (20-200 in-lbs and 10-150 ft/lbs). I would have liked to have a high-quality CDI wrench, but I decided that accurately measuring across a wider torque range is more important. Life is full of trade-offs.

 

I also have a Mitutoyo dial caliper, and (purchased for this project) a set of Fowler micrometers. My new straightedge is brandless, but it's 24" long and supposedly flat within 0.002". Thanks for the reminder, tomorrow I'll bring it to work to verified it's flatness on a calibrated surface plate.

 

Sounds a bit ridiculous for a DIY build (impossible). In a temperature / humidity controlled factory that pumps out motors? Sure, make everything the same. But honestly I don't see how you could possibly negate / account for temp / humidity differences in an at-home build.

Yep, yep, and yep. Engineers are good people (I'm one too) but they (we) quickly allow (encourage) things to get waaaay out of control by trying to account for every 0.0000001% chance that something might happen. Yes a drop of water affects the overall depth of the ocean, but does that small amount really matter? Yes that one drop could, in theory, change the orbit of the moon, but that small amount matter? And the universe quickly spirals out of control because of a single drop of water.

 

Birkhoff, are you also an engineer?

Edited June 20, 2016 by StkmltS

[birkhoff]

Nope, I am not (an engineer).

 

If your case is re-useable, that is probably because you still have good cross-hatching in place on all bores, amongst other things, which means the best plan for OEM is to replace like with like. A- pistons in A- bores and likewise B. So, once you get that far, you could ask the forum for a set of OEM pistons of selected sizes. I would not do that until you verify you can drop in.

 

That should get you pistons in one or two weeks, which is about the time it takes to pull the rest apart and measure the other bits, saving perhaps $200?

 

You'll be wanting to measure good to a couple tenths (ten thousands of an inch), not thousands, but I know you already know that. With my bore gauges, I saw drift on the scale of the tolerances I was shooting for while going back and forth recalibrating and handling the gauge head. Micrometers have plastic heat shields on them for good reason. Even very expensive ones! Try to keep fingers on those covers. None of this arises in a typical automotive rebuild. Subaru specs are an order of magnitude closer fitting than anything else I've worked on.

 

No criticism intended on the budget thing. We've all been there. It would be senseless for me to seriously claim you can cut $xx from the budget. I'd lose that bet every time since it is you spending the money! And anyway, I'd already be at a disadvantage after those camshaft bolts . My statement was more philosophical, shall we say.

[birkhoff]

Ok, I'll bite.

 

What does humidity have to do with this discussion? We're not (re-)building a piano here. I didn't keep track of humidity anywhere along the way with my build. Does that mean my engine's gonna blow??!

[Tehnation]

Only thing I can think of is particles in the air...... "particulate matter"! High humidity is no bueno!

[StkmltS]

Ok, I'll bite.

 

What does humidity have to do with this discussion? We're not (re-)building a piano here. I didn't keep track of humidity anywhere along the way with my build. Does that mean my engine's gonna blow??!

Yep, you're pretty much screwed. You may as well crack it open and sell me your pistons before they all crack.

 

In theory, humidity changes "things" about the environment, therefore, in theory, your measurements "could" change if the humidity changes.

[StkmltS]

The kids are in bed and the garage is only a few kids toys away from being able to receive the nasty addiction we all share.

A single tear is starting to form in the corner of my eye... I should save it for my LGT scrapbook.

This is it boys, the point of no return!

 

Here are my goals for tonight:

Car into garage

Drain engine oil

Drain the cooling system

*Open beer (Milwaukee's Best Ice FTW)

Disconnect and remove battery

Uninstall the intercooler

Remove the snorkel and hood prop

Disconnect the MAF sensor

Remove air intake hose between the airbox and the engine

Remove the filter side of the airbox

Disconnect the lower hose at the radiator

Disconnect the electrical connections for both fans

Disconnect the hoses from the remote coolant reservoir to the radiator

Remove the top rear coolant line on the remote coolant reservoir

Remove the remote coolant reservoir mount

Remove top coolant hose on engine side

[Tehnation]

Take a shit ton of pictures for reference, like your a photographer for Playboy, lol! If in doubt, take a picture. Have plenty of zip lock bags and sharpies for bolts, nuts and misc., group bolts together, and be very detailed with your descriptions on bags.

 

And if you don't already have some get a jug of berrymans dip, to clean any bolts, and or misc metal parts,. Along with some toothbrushes or wire brush. I just drop it in the tray over night, dip it in water, and wipe it off. Or scrub it down and re dip.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Berryman-0996-Chem-Dip-Carburetor-Cleaner/dp/B00DSMEL2A

 

Or you can pick up a jug at Walmart for same price, but now factor.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Tehnation

[StkmltS]

Take a shit ton of pictures for reference, like your a photographer for Playboy, lol! If in doubt, take a picture. Have plenty of zip lock bags and sharpies for bolts, nuts and misc., group bolts together, and be very detailed with your descriptions on bags.

 

And if you don't already have some get a jug of berrymans dip, to clean any bolts, and or misc metal parts,. Along with some toothbrushes or wire brush. I just drop it in the tray over night, dip it in water, and wipe it off. Or scrub it down and re dip.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Berryman-0996-Chem-Dip-Carburetor-Cleaner/dp/B00DSMEL2A

 

Or you can pick up a jug at Walmart for same price, but now factor.

That stuff looks cool. I wonder if putting it in my ultrasonic cleaner would be a bad idea...

 

I didn't take many pictures, but I video'd everything. Once I get into uncharted territory I'll slow down and get close-up shots as-needed.

 

Bags, tags, and labels are one thing I have plenty of. I put Scruit's dis/assembly list into MS Project and I have a printout on my garage table that I'm working to. I'm labeling each tag/bag with the step number in my MS Project file. Quick, easy, understandable, and everything matches.

 

Last night went as planned, except I got twice as much done as expected by working until 1:30 instead of stopping at 11pm. It's a little scary when google say's "your alarm is set for 3 hours and 28 minutes". I'm sure tonight won't be much different.

[LatentWagen]

Here are my goals for tonight:

Car into garage

Drain engine oil

Drain the cooling system

*Open beer (Milwaukee's Best Ice FTW)

 

Maybe add safety pillow placement to the list, for when you fall asleep with your head in the engine bay? And move your asterisked item up a couple spots. Priorities!

[StkmltS]

I was under the car taking off the DP bolts around midnight and "it kinda feels comfy under here" nestled itself in my mind for a brief moment. Maybe I'll sleep in the back of the wagon tonight.

[StkmltS]

 

Posts #3 and #4 updated.

[seanyb505]

I was under the car taking off the DP bolts around midnight and "it kinda feels comfy under here" nestled itself in my mind for a brief moment. Maybe I'll sleep in the back of the wagon tonight.

 

I absolutely slept in the back of the wagon for the first part of a night. Wagon>Sedan

 

Scuit's list is a must IMO. The Vacation Pics leave a lot to be desired in terms of down to earth understand-ability. I added FSM description and illustration page numbers to each of the steps. The illustration pages typically had all the info I needed (torque specs)

Edited June 21, 2016 by seanyb505

[StkmltS]

The turbo is out and so am I. Nighty night Internet friends.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160622/15677465dcd774eb47fdf1965911f708.jpg

[birkhoff]

Not necessary to remove the turbo before the pull. It won't hurt, but it won't help that much either.

 

Great to see steady progress.

[StkmltS]

Not necessary to remove the turbo before the pull. It won't hurt, but it won't help that much either.

 

Great to see steady progress.

Usually true. If it needs rebuilt or replaced that would likely take a couple weeks, maybe more. By removing and inspecting the turbo as soon as possible I can reduce the risk of having to extend my schedule because of the turbo.

[Max Capacity]

Not much time right now, but do not port match the heads. Read up on porting these heads, its 90% done down in the valve pocket, you need to smaller exit to increase exhaust gas speed.

[StkmltS]

Last night went very well. To get the motor out the only things left are the motor mounts and bellhousing bolts. I was hoping to be able to pull the motor on Saturday, so getting it out tonight will put me several days ahead of schedule.

 

Dial test indicator ordered > Prime same-day delivery FTW.

I was hoping to get by without buying one of these, but my depth gauge cant reach far enough into the turbo.

 

Not much time right now, but do not port match the heads. Read up on porting these heads, its 90% done down in the valve pocket, you need to smaller exit to increase exhaust gas speed.

 

I'll look into it more.

I remember reading (somewhere) conflicting info about porting our heads, it gave me the impression that it was kind of like the banjo-filter vs no-banjo-filter topic.

Edited June 23, 2016 by StkmltS

[Max Capacity]

Even when my machine shop offered to do some head porting and I mentioned the article about these heads, he was quick to say he knew what I was talking about and how most of the work had to be done down in the valve pocket and not to do much at the exit to keep the gas speed up to spool the turbo.

[StkmltS]

Here's a pic from the end of last night.

[xt2005bonbon]

nice work. You purposely already took out a bolt from the intake manifold above cylinder 2? My favorite cylinder btw

[StkmltS]

nice work. You purposely already took out a bolt from the intake manifold above cylinder 2? My favorite cylinder btw

 

Uh, yeah, something like that. It may or may not have broken off last time I had the manifold off.

 

#2 is my favorite too. When it comes out I'm gonna be piiiiist if it's not cracked! I guess a super-bent valve would be ok too, although that would have been obvious during the leak-down test (even though I don't trust my results).

[StkmltS]

Poll added to help me decide on a [sb / heads / valve covers] color combo.

I'm sticking with the two colors I've already used on my TB cover and TGVs.