Rhitter Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think the water pump has a weep hole, is that's where it's coming from? If they rebuilt it maybe ask them about it. They might be willing to look at it again. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think the water pump has a weep hole, is that's where it's coming from? If they rebuilt it maybe ask them about it. They might be willing to look at it again. If it's leaking from the weep hole, it'd mean they did not replace the water pump! And 80K is not much even for the original pump. Where is the weep hole on the pump? I did talk to them last week and they were not responsive. If I'm positive they did not replace the pump, then I can show up in person and have a different conversation. Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I am curious to see what you find. Pretty sure I have leak in exactly that same spot on a basically brand new water pump. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 I am curious to see what you find. Pretty sure I have leak in exactly that same spot on a basically brand new water pump. No-o-o-o-o-o! Did I mention that I hate leaks! Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 It seems like it is coming from between the water pump body and the block. I haven't replaced the water pump on the EJ255, and I don't actually remember how it was on the EJ22, but is that likely? Does it use a gasket or sealant at that spot? Kamen It uses a gasket. The OEM one is a kind of hard rubber; quite stiff. Definitely not a paper gasket. The separating surface is easy to see in your photo. It is where there is a line of coolant gathering along the edge of the block, to the rear of your new hose and to the right of the dipstick tube. Maybe it is just me, but those pictures don't convince me of a leak. I can't really see any difference between them. When everything is hot, a slow leak like this will be hard to find. Check in the morning after everything cools overnight and see if it wet. Maybe you did that and that is why you know there is a leak. If it is from the WP it could be gasket or seal. Either way, the timing belt has to come off to make the repair. But you may not have a leak at all, just old crud left from the former leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 It uses a gasket. The OEM one is a kind of hard rubber; quite stiff. Definitely not a paper gasket. The separating surface is easy to see in your photo. It is where there is a line of coolant gathering along the edge of the block, to the rear of your new hose and to the right of the dipstick tube. Maybe it is just me, but those pictures don't convince me of a leak. I can't really see any difference between them. When everything is hot, a slow leak like this will be hard to find. Check in the morning after everything cools overnight and see if it wet. Maybe you did that and that is why you know there is a leak. If it is from the WP it could be gasket or seal. Either way, the timing belt has to come off to make the repair. But you may not have a leak at all, just old crud left from the former leak. Trust me, no one wants there to not be a leak more than I! The photo where I'm pointing to the new leak was taken after I had left the engine to cool off after warming it up for the air-bleeding procedure. There was a fresh drop descending down the oil-pan bottom, right beside the oil dipstick tube base, that I wiped off (on second thought, should have left it for the photo). I have been desperately trying to rationalize it, e.g., maybe it was from some coolant I had spilled when pouring the coolant. It has happened to me before: after replacing the valve-cover gasket on my EJ205, it kept smoking oil, even after I had wiped clean all adjacent engine surfaces. I can't tell you how many times I took it apart and resealed it... only to find out, in the end, that it was some spilled oil that had collected inside the lower exhaust manifold cover! Anyway, I'll check it again, but my biggest concern is: if the dealership messed up the installation or didn't replace the water pump, at all, why should I have to fix their mistakes? Since I'm not getting a comment on that photo-question, I'll have to assume that the corrosion on the oil-cooler connector off of the WP is potentially normal on a 12K-mile WP. But I may still give it a try with the dealership. I just don't want them to take in the car so they can "look at it" and then try to coerce me to let them fix it at my cost. I wish I was not pressed for time... Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted June 2, 2016 Share Posted June 2, 2016 Since I'm not getting a comment on that photo-question, I'll have to assume that the corrosion on the oil-cooler connector off of the WP is potentially normal on a 12K-mile WP. But I may still give it a try with the dealership. I just don't want them to take in the car so they can "look at it" and then try to coerce me to let them fix it at my cost. I wish I was not pressed for time... Kamen Probably I should have said it a little differently, but I've been there too, chasing down a phantom leak. Now I blast everything with compressed air after an install like this just to make sure nothing is 'lurking'. As for your question, the corrosion looks plausible for 12K in my opinion. The ones I have done have been much worse. At 50K, 80K thereabouts. I think it would be hard to prove they reused your pump on the corrosion evidence alone. Maybe if you do take it in and they have a chance to actually take a look, they will do the right thing and at least split the difference on the repair. If it is leaking at the gasket, that would indicate an install error. Incorrect torque; something like that, which naturally they should stand behind. The gasketed joint to the block seems pretty well designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Lifted it up earlier tonight (changed the front differential oil, too - some Mobil 1 75W-90), and it is definitely leaking. After 2-3 drive/heat cycles, you can see the result on the photos (there were a few drops on the skidplate, so not a whole lot): http://imgur.com/3zh4FNV.jpg http://imgur.com/CL9qKSb.jpg http://imgur.com/Nhf18w4.jpg I'm taking it to the dealer tomorrow. If they refuse to cover any sensible portion of the work under warranty, I'll take it as a sign that I shouldn't be letting them near my car, anyway. I figure, one could clamp the timing belt to the camshaft sprockets before removing the tensioner to avoid having to reset the timing, and pull the water pump. Then, new gasket and rubber seal, and proper torqueing order, and it should do the job. But we'll see. Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted June 4, 2016 Author Share Posted June 4, 2016 In short: the dealership admitted that they did not replace the pump back when they did the engine rebuild, so they fixed it now for free! I talked to the service manager and he said their next appointment was in over two weeks, but agreed to take it in today for inspection. He even drove it in to the garage himself as we finished the paperwork. A few hours later I got a call to go pick up the car and when I got there, he said he had the original service advisor take care of it, and after talking to the technicians, she determined that they, in fact, did not replace the pump. The reason given was confusion; apparently, they use something they call a "hybrid short block", which on N/A engines comes with the water pump attached, but not on the less-common turbo engines. Not sure how that explains is, because they still had to transfer the old pump, but maybe the service advisor was confused thinking that the pump was replaced while, in fact, it was not. Either way, once they had it up, they figured they might as well go for it, and did all the work (new pump, gasket and thermostat/gasket assembly, as well as coolant). Otherwise, they would have told me that it's the water pump and I could not have used the Outback for my trip, and I still would have had to bring the car for the service (given that they'd do it for free). Now it's all fixed, and I even have a few days before the trip to test it out. So, they messed up and corrected their mistake. Good. Now I can be more confident going on that trip. Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow_419 Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 Good to hear they took care of the problem and did right by you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted June 4, 2016 Share Posted June 4, 2016 In short: the dealership admitted that they did not replace the pump back when they did the engine rebuild, so they fixed it now for free! I talked to the service manager and he said their next appointment was in over two weeks, but agreed to take it in today for inspection. He even drove it in to the garage himself as we finished the paperwork. A few hours later I got a call to go pick up the car and when I got there, he said he had the original service advisor take care of it, and after talking to the technicians, she determined that they, in fact, did not replace the pump. The reason given was confusion; apparently, they use something they call a "hybrid short block", which on N/A engines comes with the water pump attached, but not on the less-common turbo engines. Not sure how that explains is, because they still had to transfer the old pump, but maybe the service advisor was confused thinking that the pump was replaced while, in fact, it was not. Either way, once they had it up, they figured they might as well go for it, and did all the work (new pump, gasket and thermostat/gasket assembly, as well as coolant). Otherwise, they would have told me that it's the water pump and I could not have used the Outback for my trip, and I still would have had to bring the car for the service (given that they'd do it for free). Now it's all fixed, and I even have a few days before the trip to test it out. So, they messed up and corrected their mistake. Good. Now I can be more confident going on that trip. Kamen Any idea how they dealt with the timing belt for that replacement? My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted June 4, 2016 Author Share Posted June 4, 2016 Any idea how they dealt with the timing belt for that replacement? No, they didn't say anything, and I don't even know that the service manager or advisor knew that information, and they probably wouldn't have admitted if they knew the technician had taken any shortcuts. But given how they ended up doing the job the same day, and how quickly they did it, I assume they likely took some shortcuts. I haven't done the timing belt on the EJ255 but on the EJ205 (also DOHC) I have been actually clamping the camshaft sprockets together (top to bottom) to preserve the timing (I have a picture somewhere), so I figure, if you don't even have to replace the timing belt, might as well not remove it, at all. But I can't be sure until I tried it. Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted June 6, 2016 Share Posted June 6, 2016 Great to hear this all worked out. With a new pump and, one would hope, competent installation, it will go a long time without trouble. In one of the posts you said the same shop pulled the engine and installed a new SB in the last two years. It would be madness for them to not have put in a new timing kit at the time (questionable also to not replace the pump, but that seems to have been an oversight, if you believe the story). Given this, they must have pulled your belt and tensioner and then reinstalled both, since they still have a lot of life left. I'd be happy with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted June 6, 2016 Author Share Posted June 6, 2016 Great to hear this all worked out. With a new pump and, one would hope, competent installation, it will go a long time without trouble. In one of the posts you said the same shop pulled the engine and installed a new SB in the last two years. It would be madness for them to not have put in a new timing kit at the time (questionable also to not replace the pump, but that seems to have been an oversight, if you believe the story). Given this, they must have pulled your belt and tensioner and then reinstalled both, since they still have a lot of life left. I'd be happy with that. Thanks! I am quite confident that they replaced the timing belt because I had it delivered to them by my representative (an aftermarket parts company that resided in the same building; in fact, their counter used to be right next to the dealership's parts counter). If they didn't, that would mean they are thieves. They also listed that they replaced all the idler pulleys, which makes it even stranger that they'd omit the water pump. If I can believe their report. This is so confusing - they showed good will by correcting their mistake for free, but they also did make that mistake/omission (or was it knowingly?) The issue is: they corrected the mistake they were caught making, so how much that shows this was an honest mistake - I don't know, and what else there might be going on... I do my job as expertly and thoroughly as I can (I'm lucky to be in the position to be able to do that as my company expects it), but I see how it is everywhere around me: everyone cutting corners and making the excuse (when caught) that it's what makes prices so low. It makes my life miserable as I have to spend most of my time becoming an expert in everything (how about health care?) and double-checking everyone else's work. Come on, World! Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birkhoff Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Personally, I tend to stay away from shops that have a dedicated service manager. Too often the job description seems to be to create a Wizard-of-Oz type screen between the customer and the techs. Maybe not fair, and I can appreciate that a good service manager could be a great benefit in a large shop, but your experience seems all too common. One reasonable interpretation of what happened is this. They ordered a 'hybrid' short block, or had one on hand, already fitted with a NA water pump. Not anticipating the problem, and not having a turbo pump in stock (I believe the third pipe outlet is one of the differences, there may be others) once the job started they were in a pickle. The quickest way out was to re-use the decent looking pump you had on the previous engine. The other option was to stop the job for a day or two waiting for the right pump. The difference between a small shop and a big one: the mechanic in the former would probably tell you what they had to do, and why. The SM-fronted shop operates on a different dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted June 8, 2016 Author Share Posted June 8, 2016 I wish I had a choice. I went to that specific dealership (we have a boatload, here in Colorado, plus independent shops) upon the recommendation of a local forum. I wish I could know which is which, and who is who, but you can only do so much. This was the first time I let somebody else work on my cars in a long time, and it was a bad experience. I'm just coming from another few hours spent in the garage, working on the car (getting it ready for the trip tomorrow); I'm getting old for this... Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTEASER Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 Bump. Looks like the water pump weep hole is leaking on my 09 FXT. Is it possible to replace the water pump without pulling off the timing belt? GTEASER's 2012 Legacy GT - Sold GTEASER's 2009 XTeaser - Sold GTEASER's 1992 Legacy SS - Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamen Posted December 24, 2017 Author Share Posted December 24, 2017 Bump. Looks like the water pump weep hole is leaking on my 09 FXT. Is it possible to replace the water pump without pulling off the timing belt? I have only replaced myself the water pump on other EJ engines (EJ22, EJ205) but not on the EJ257, but on none of others could you do it without removing the timing belt as it is under one of the pulleys. I'm sure someone with more experience with that engine will respond soon enough. Kamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relative4 Posted December 24, 2017 Share Posted December 24, 2017 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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