2017 Legacy News and Rumors

[DrD123]

Eyesight has been on sale in Japan for nearly 10 years. Over 85% of Subarus sold there are equipped with it. From 2010 to 2014, JDM eyesight equipped vehicles had 80% fewer rear end crashes, 50% fewer pedestrian collisions, and 60% less accidents overall than non eyesight equipped Subarus... and that's with the old system and not the the current one that sees more, sees in color, and is faster in processing.

 

http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/news/press/2015/15_04_20e_115277.html

http://subaru.co.uk/news/-2016-02-01/

 

Well, as with drive by wire - it's not a problem until something goes wrong, as did with toyota (believe that was blamed on tin whisker formation from lead free solder) - you're taking a little liberty with the data in those links - it's 85% of the vehicles sold in the calendar year ending in March 2015, and that's not 85% of all of the vehicles they sold, if you follow the footnote, it's 85% of the vehicles sold for models where eyesight was available... you need to be careful when marketing gets their hands on data - they do their best to make it look as good as possible. So it's a very, very far cry from 85% of all of the vehicles they have sold there since it was introduced in 2008 (8 years ago).

 

Conceptually, it's a great idea - where I worry is that it encourages bad behavior in drivers - once you depend on a system, if it doesn't perform as advertised, you can get into trouble. (even the first link indicates it might not always do what you think - there are other factors that can hinder its ability to function properly - they say "This system may not operate as expected depending on various factors including road, weather, and vehicle conditions")

 

I don't think I have ever seen information for any sort of recall or feature related issue in Japan, so no idea where to even look for that sort of information (I'm going out on a limb and guessing that every car sold by every manufacturer that services Japan doesn't build all perfect cars...)

 

The data in the other link doesn't even yield a source you can check out... basically, Subaru of Japan released statistics... the question that immediately comes to mind is how did they interpret those stats? all rear end collisions? or did they massage the data a bit and remove situations where they felt Eyesight wouldn't have made a difference anyway? In the first link, Subaru indicates there are situations where it's not going to work - so do their stats exclude those situations, the argument being that Eyesight isn't relevant there?)

[The B4]

Apparently you don't follow JDM sales. An even older article indicating JDM Eyesight take rate over 70%. Eyesight was over 60% of JDM Subaru sales before Eyesight even launched in the US. So yes, Subaru's JDM take rate for Eyesight is very high and has been for years. Since Gen 2, Subaru has sold more Eyesight equipped vehicles in Japan than non Eyesight equipped vehicles. The non eyesight vehicles are FAR more likely to be involved in an accident.

 

Conceptually nothing. At this point, there's plenty of real world data to show Subaru's system is more effective at preventing accidents than a driver alone is. Subaru prototyped Eyesight in the 90's. The last generation went on sale nearly 10 years ago.

 

The system turns off when the cameras can't see. When the system turns off, it tells you it's off both with audio and visuals. It's not an auto pilot. It's a driver's assistance technology. The point is that vehicles equipped with it are far less likely to hit things than vehicles that are not regardless of its limitations.

 

You can throw up all of the theoreticals you want, but the tech has been out too long for you to credibly defend the position you're taking.

[hkshooter]

I don't believe the argument is with the effectiveness or lack thereof of the system but rather the purported sales numbers. We can argue the validity or usefulness of the system all day long but it's as simple as saying will or will not either ES or non-ES cars hit an object in front of them. Under identical circumstances I believe we know the outcome of that.

My interest was primarily in the sales numbers. The claims seem very grand IMHO so I asked for sources, which B4 provided. All that's left is to determine if those numbers are skewed in some way or are really credible enough to be believed. Either way I suppose it doesn't really matter. I tend to look at any number that's provided by a manufacturer with a raised eyebrow because it's certainly in their best interest to make something they build look as good as possible. When years and millions of $ have been spent on a technology the company certainly wants to cash that cow as much as he can.

But for market numbers, do we know all the variables involved? What models were primarily provided to that market? Were ES and non-ES equal? Were salesmen instructed to push certain models over another? Are wages commission driven in the market? What's the general demographic of the market?

So many things can affect sales of a product and when the numbers seem so skewed there has to be a reason. Is the system really that popular? Or is it all market hype?

The tech has been out there for a while and I see it as another step between people having the freedom to think for themselves and simply getting on board and telling the car where they want to go. But how I feel about ES is irrelevant. It will be interesting to watch in the years to come how it all evolves.

[The B4]

Doesn't matter why they buy Eyesight. It matters that enough of them have been sold over the years for a good sample of data. That being said, people in Japan: 1) take meticulous care of their cars and you won't see one with body damage on it. 2) Owning and maintaining a car there is very expensive. 3) There's a lot of congestion and a lot of their roads are barely big enough for automobiles.

 

It makes sense to have a helping hand when driving as having an accident is Japan is both expensive and shameful.

 

Also of note, Subaru's JDM Eyesight has been capable of more features than the USDM eyesight. We are just starting to see some of them here (lane keep assistance, auto high beams, etc.)

[SubOperator]

 

Also of note, Subaru's JDM Eyesight has been capable of more features than the USDM eyesight. We are just starting to see some of them here (lane keep assistance, auto high beams, etc.)

 

Does this mean that an ECU dump from a JDM car may enable these features on USDM cars? AFAIK all major electronics on USDM Subarus are coming from Japan anyway.

[ehsnils]

Does this mean that an ECU dump from a JDM car may enable these features on USDM cars? AFAIK all major electronics on USDM Subarus are coming from Japan anyway.

 

Not necessarily, the ECU may lack the hardware needed.

 

It's common in the auto industry to shave cost by not populating all positions on the PCB, and in some cases fit different connectors as well with fewer pins.

 

If they can save 10 cents on an ECU that's available in a large volume in two variants then they do it.

[PeterP]

I am interested in getting a new Legacy Limited and have been following this forum with great interest. I thought you all might be interested in the latest pricing/options information regarding the 2017 Legacy that has been posted on the Subaru website: http://www.subaru.com/company/news.html

 

It appears from this news release that the MSRP for the 2.5 Limited is now $28,840 which is about $2K more than the current model. However, from what I can gather from the release, the base Limited now includes the moonroof and keyless ignition packages, which are currently optional. The only option package listed for the Limited includes Eyesight that adds Reverse Automatic Braking, plus "automatic" HID low beam, for an additional $1995, bringing the total to $30,835 which is a bit more than the $30,235 for a 2016 Limited with Moonroof, Eyesight and Keyless ignition, but without HID or Reverse Automatic Braking, which were not available in the 2016 model. Note that the prices I have quoted do not include delivery charges.

[DrD123]

Apparently you don't follow JDM sales.

I followed the link you supplied for your stats. Was that data in error? It states that the 85% corresponds to the "Ratio relative to cumulative sales of EyeSight-available vehicles for the period of April 2014 to March 2015" So for cars purchased in that 1 year period, for models where eyesight was available, 85% of the time it was purchased.

 

Thinking a system is infallible is a really, really bad idea. It can clearly help inattentive drivers, but it can also support bad behavior. Not saying it won't work most of the time, just that it won't always work. If a driver becomes dependent on it, then they are going to be in a world of hurt when it fails (or if they don't understand its limitations... there was a post over on the forester board where that happened). As an aid, it's a good thing - but it's not a replacement for an attentive driver.

 

I just keep remembering this video (not Subaru, but a similar system)

[08SpecB_DE]

I have poured more money into my Subaru than I reasonably should have considering how well I maintain that car. Bad wheel bearing assembly just out of warranty, head gaskets at 90k mi, paintless dent repair for a minor hail storm thanks to ultra thin sheetmetal, just to name a few of the more expensive items. And now I'm afraid my torque converter just failed on me at 133k miles. The car is basically undrivable with severe shudder. And the climate control fan just quit too, to add insult to injury. If I see one more bullshit ad about how Subarus last forever....I'd say they're average at best, and I wouldn't choose another feature lagging Subaru over, say, a well equipped Fusion based on any expectation of superior reliability.

 

There are so many things wrong with this post. Wheel bearings go bad on all cars at some point in its life, more so on those driven on very bumpy roads or with a lot of potholes. Head gaskets are a notorious failure item on these vehicles, so that's your strongest case but this has been known for many years. Every car can be damaged during a hail storm, what a silly argument. Torque converters go bad on many cars as well so it's not unusual. Unfortunately, you are going through the phase of owning an aging car and things like this can and will present themselves. I understand your frustration but if all this happened in under 50k, I'd be just as peeved.

 

If you maintain your car as well as you say you do, I guarantee it will last longer than any Ford Fusion. If you plan on leaving Subaru, I urge you to look into a Toyota or Honda way before any Ford. In my ~ 9 years of turning wrenches, I can't say I would recommend any Ford EXCEPT their Turbo Diesel trucks. This is all based on reliability and cost of ownership from the thousands of cars I've had the pleasure to work on.

[The B4]

I followed the link you supplied for your stats. Was that data in error? It states that the 85% corresponds to the "Ratio relative to cumulative sales of EyeSight-available vehicles for the period of April 2014 to March 2015" So for cars purchased in that 1 year period, for models where eyesight was available, 85% of the time it was purchased.

 

Thinking a system is infallible is a really, really bad idea. It can clearly help inattentive drivers, but it can also support bad behavior. Not saying it won't work most of the time, just that it won't always work. If a driver becomes dependent on it, then they are going to be in a world of hurt when it fails (or if they don't understand its limitations... there was a post over on the forester board where that happened). As an aid, it's a good thing - but it's not a replacement for an attentive driver.

 

I just keep remembering this video (not Subaru, but a similar system)

 

Did you follow the 2nd link showing stats for 2012? Did you follow the stats of JDM Eyesight sales over the years so you wouldn't make unqualified, doomsday posts?

 

No one said anything about infallible. For that video you posted, if a driver was not paying attention with a non eyesight car, the result would be the same. Once again, Eyesight is not an autopilot. It is not a license to no longer pay attention to the road. When Eyesight tries to avoid an accident, it's not a smooth controlled stop. It's violent, abrupt, fear inducing, and embarrassing. It is not something anyone would rely on with full consciousness of what's in front of you. Even the manual states that it activates "just before the collision."

 

There will always be people that claim a system failed them. Worn tires, wet/sandy/muddy/leaf-strewn roads, and broken pavement can have a negative impact on stopping distances. On top of that, if the speed differential is too high, The vehicle will not stop in time regardless. There are 3 cases with Tesla vehicles where the driver's claimed the car did things it shouldn't have. Tesla pulled the data logs on the vehicles and showed all 3 to be lies. One was a very public case with a journalist for the New York Times. The edtior for the paper had to apologize on behalf of the journalist after they realized he lied. We have no idea what the circumstances were regarding the Forester driver. What we do know is that he recognized the impending accident based on his recounting. If the driver adds input once pre collision braking has started, such as swerving, Eyesight backs off as the driver is showing to be in control of the vehicle. Eyesight will never fight the driver.

 

We are long past the point where we can increase the attentiveness of drivers. No politicians are going to risk their careers to champion more stringent and frequent driving tests/requirements. We can't pull all of the distractions out of the car.

 

So, Chicken Little, having Eyesight is better than not having it when it comes to preventing or minimizing collisions.

[Max Capacity]

Not to high jack this thread about the value of Eyesight, but dose any one know if the 2017 Legacy Sport will come with a 3.6 engine ?

 

Or what's the HP of the engine in the car ?

[The B4]

according to the press release, it's 2.5i only. The last sport model Legacy didn't have a power bump. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/subaru-of-america-announces-pricing-on-2017-subaru-legacy-and-outback-models-300275688.html#continue-jump

[MJ in PA]

There are so many things wrong with this post. Wheel bearings go bad on all cars at some point in its life, more so on those driven on very bumpy roads or with a lot of potholes.

 

But mine wasn't driven on rough roads and to have to replace 'em just out of warranty with Subaru picking up none of the cost kinda hurts.

 

Head gaskets are a notorious failure item on these vehicles, so that's your strongest case but this has been known for many years.

And Subaru keeps claiming the problem is solved, yet they keep failing prematurely on the boxer engines.

 

Every car can be damaged during a hail storm, what a silly argument.

True, yes, but I think Subaru uses the thinnest sheetmetal of just about any manufacturer. It's annoying how easily the cars dent. The paintless dent repair tech agreed with me on that. It's sort of the anti-Saturn. I miss my (real Spring Hill, TN built before GM ruined it and turned it into the American Opel outlet) Saturn with the rugged plastic body side panels.

 

Torque converters go bad on many cars as well so it's not unusual.

I may have been wrong on that, knock on wood. New plugs and wires and a basic tune up may have solved a misfire condition.

 

Unfortunately, you are going through the phase of owning an aging car and things like this can and will present themselves. I understand your frustration but if all this happened in under 50k, I'd be just as peeved.

My 1997 Saturn SL2 went 220,000 miles with only a few minor issues like upper motor mounts and such. No transmission issues, one wheel bearing assembly replacement in that time, original timing chain (not complaining about the belt, but it was nice to not have to do a timing belt replacement), no major failures. I guess based on that benchmark, I can't expect many cars to live up to that lucky case.

 

If you maintain your car as well as you say you do, I guarantee it will last longer than any Ford Fusion. If you plan on leaving Subaru, I urge you to look into a Toyota or Honda way before any Ford.

I need a job that pays real $$. I got my MBA, but no riches followed so I'm currently highly educated but broke. Once I have a real job again, I'll consider carefully. In the meantime, I was really hoping for the Legacy to be a 200k mile car. It's got 133,500 on the clock now.

 

In my ~ 9 years of turning wrenches, I can't say I would recommend any Ford EXCEPT their Turbo Diesel trucks. This is all based on reliability and cost of ownership from the thousands of cars I've had the pleasure to work on.

Well, I hope my brother has decent luck with his 2014 or 2015 Fusion (forget which, he got it new in late '14). But we'll see.

[EvilCamaroSS]

So, 2018 Subaru Legacy Turbo? Maybe? Please? lol

[08SpecB_DE]

 

I need a job that pays real $$. I got my MBA, but no riches followed so I'm currently highly educated but broke. Once I have a real job again, I'll consider carefully. In the meantime, I was really hoping for the Legacy to be a 200k mile car. It's got 133,500 on the clock now.

 

Well, I hope my brother has decent luck with his 2014 or 2015 Fusion (forget which, he got it new in late '14). But we'll see.

 

No doubt the Legacy can be a 200k + vehicle for you. You have to remember your brothers car is about 10 years newer so it's hard to compare features. I understand the timing belt issue and you are very lucky you didn't have to replace the chains and guides or the transmission on your Saturn.

 

IMO, your recent troubles got you frustrated and seeing your brother driving around in a much newer vehicle made you contemplate getting rid of the Subaru. Of course you can do whatever you want but I wanted to chime in.

[Shlunky11]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I have driven most every brand out there.

1982 Toyota Celica

1984 Nissan 200sx Turbo

1985 Chrysler 5th Avenue

1987 Chevy Caprice (4.3L)

1995 Mitsubishi Mirage

1999 Ford Taurus

2001 Honda Prelude

2002 Honda Accord

2003 Saturn L200 (bouhgt new)

2003 Nissan Maxima (bought new)

2004 Acura MDX

2006 Subaru Legacy GT (bought new)

2007 Honda Odyssey

2008 Honda Accord EX-L V6

2012 Subaru Legacy GT

 

Now, I am a bit of a car whore (just turned 36)...., but I am also quite anal with how I maintain them. I am very meticulous and constant with all required/optional maintenance and "enhancements" on my cars.

 

With the vast gap in years and models on the cars, you can't really compare them apples to apples. I will say, the best service I got out of any of the cars....the 1987 Caprice. You couldn't kill that car (302k miles). Next would be the 1995 Mirage. Such a great, reliable car. The worst, without a doubt, the 2007 Odyssey, 2008 Accord, and 2004 MDX.

All 3 have/had transmission problems. No, there wasn't any towing, yes I did drain and fills with Honda Z-1 (then) and DW-1(now) transmission fluid on a way more frequent than required basis (basically every oil change). Not only that, but soooo many other issues with them. I averaged about $125/month in repairs on the 2008 Accord alone (no maintenance included) for the life of the car, which was 4 years and 65k miles. Zero drag racing or extra abuse (other than daily commuting).

 

I have only had one issue out of my Subaru's (except a rock hitting the A/C condenser with 4k miles on the odometer) and that was a fueling issue that occurred outside of warranty, but I still received assistance from Subaru because of the rarity of the issue and how unique it was. The Maxima I didn't have very long (8k miles). The Saturn was about average (76k miles). The Toyota, had the 22R in it, such a great motor. It too died in a wreck (241k miles).

 

If you take care of cars, properly, for the most part you should get great service out of them. Some will cost you more to maintain than others. Even if you have two exact same cars. Just the way it is.

On average, Subaru is top of the charts. They are the top brand in the US, according to KBB for resale value (none luxary brand).

That wouldn't be the case if the cars weren't in high demand on the used car market. They wouldn't be in high demand if they didn't have a reputation for overall longevity, safety, and reliability.

 

I HIGHLY doubt I will ever buy another Honda as I couldn't even get them to repair some warranty work....

 

To each their own!!!

§

[MJ in PA]

Well my Subaru seems to be running well now, knock on wood. I had to replace the blower motor as the climate control fan had quit on me recently, and with new spark plugs, wires, PCV valve, and other basic tune up items I haven't gotten any misfire. No more cheap ethanol laced 7 Eleven gas though - I wonder if that was part of it. Usually I put Shell or some other brand name midgrade in the car.

 

Little things about Subaru's cost cutting really annoy me, like not only did they cut the dual exhaust, but they can't even produce two different bumper shells. If you look at a new Legacy with single exhaust, it'll have a plastic filler piece where the other pipe would be. Look at a Ford Fusion, and it'll have bumper shells made for the specific model with its particular exhause setup. Trivial? Perhaps, but just one of many examples of where Subaru has gotten cheap. A 2005 Legacy GT would have turn signal lights in the mirrors. Today, a Ford Focus will give you those but no North American Legacy has 'em. Lots of nickel and dime stuff like that from Subaru...

[The B4]

Every Legacy except the base model has had side blinkers in the mirrors since MY 2015. Impreza has them too. *shrug

[Sarang]

Isn't there no dual exhaust offered on a Legacy anymore since they dumped the H6?

[MJ in PA]

Isn't there no dual exhaust offered on a Legacy anymore since they dumped the H6?

 

I dunno. I just remember being behind a 6th gen sedan recently and noticing the plastic filler piece in the bumper shell where the second exhaust pipe would've been.

 

As for turn signal mirrors, glad to hear they added 'em back. I didn't realize that.

[dgoodhue]

They didn't dump the H6. The 3.6R is the only configuration that has a dual mufflers.

[hkshooter]

They didn't dump the H6. The 3.6R is the only configuration that has a dual mufflers.

 

 

^^^This.

 

The 2.5 doesn't have duals.

 

But the 3.6L engine is said to be going away soon. No named replacement made public yet.

[08SpecB_DE]

Cost cutting items keeps their prices down. Ford may make 10 different bumpers but Subaru coil springs don't break. Subaru cuts cost on frivolous items, not on the quality of parts they use. Ford can afford the "nicer" features you see on their vehicles due to the cost cutting of items you don't see. I use the coil springs as an example because it's a well known fact that they break and break a lot. It may not be true for all their current models but time will tell. You really can't compare Ford to Subaru from a quality automobile standpoint if you know what you are looking at. No matter how many times you polish a turd, it's still a turd. Ford and Chevy have to lure customers in this way because they know most aren't buying their vehicles because they are reliable.

[Max Capacity]

FWIW, here's the dual exhaust on our 3.6R Outback, nice to see its a dual exhaust for a way's to the back of the car.

 

 

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x40/92Si/DSCN7211_zpscbcmnpn5.jpg

[YeuEmMaiMai]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but I have driven most every brand out there.

1982 Toyota Celica

1984 Nissan 200sx Turbo

1985 Chrysler 5th Avenue

1987 Chevy Caprice (4.3L)

1995 Mitsubishi Mirage

1999 Ford Taurus

2001 Honda Prelude

2002 Honda Accord

2003 Saturn L200 (bouhgt new)

2003 Nissan Maxima (bought new)

2004 Acura MDX

2006 Subaru Legacy GT (bought new)

2007 Honda Odyssey

2008 Honda Accord EX-L V6

2012 Subaru Legacy GT

 

Now, I am a bit of a car whore (just turned 36)...., but I am also quite anal with how I maintain them. I am very meticulous and constant with all required/optional maintenance and "enhancements" on my cars.

 

With the vast gap in years and models on the cars, you can't really compare them apples to apples. I will say, the best service I got out of any of the cars....the 1987 Caprice. You couldn't kill that car (302k miles). Next would be the 1995 Mirage. Such a great, reliable car. The worst, without a doubt, the 2007 Odyssey, 2008 Accord, and 2004 MDX.

All 3 have/had transmission problems. No, there wasn't any towing, yes I did drain and fills with Honda Z-1 (then) and DW-1(now) transmission fluid on a way more frequent than required basis (basically every oil change). Not only that, but soooo many other issues with them. I averaged about $125/month in repairs on the 2008 Accord alone (no maintenance included) for the life of the car, which was 4 years and 65k miles. Zero drag racing or extra abuse (other than daily commuting).

 

I have only had one issue out of my Subaru's (except a rock hitting the A/C condenser with 4k miles on the odometer) and that was a fueling issue that occurred outside of warranty, but I still received assistance from Subaru because of the rarity of the issue and how unique it was. The Maxima I didn't have very long (8k miles). The Saturn was about average (76k miles). The Toyota, had the 22R in it, such a great motor. It too died in a wreck (241k miles).

 

If you take care of cars, properly, for the most part you should get great service out of them. Some will cost you more to maintain than others. Even if you have two exact same cars. Just the way it is.

On average, Subaru is top of the charts. They are the top brand in the US, according to KBB for resale value (none luxary brand).

That wouldn't be the case if the cars weren't in high demand on the used car market. They wouldn't be in high demand if they didn't have a reputation for overall longevity, safety, and reliability.

 

I HIGHLY doubt I will ever buy another Honda as I couldn't even get them to repair some warranty work....

 

To each their own!!!

§

 

 

same here

 

94 Accord LX 208K

98 Accord LX 1st trans by 87K, gone by 100K

02 CL type S 1st trans by 71K now has 140K on it, it is getting sold here soon

 

 

2003 Legacy piston slap by 61K rebuilt it at 69L, now has 105K and still running like a champ

 

newest addition to my list is 2014 Legacy 19K, found rust on the trunk lid, going to have the dealer take care of it. Other than that pretty impressed with the car overall... car gets second best fuel economy of any car I have owned seeing upwards of 34 on the highway (calculated)