Just another misfire/rough idle thread...

[MrTris]

The smaller one has some pretty crappy reviews so I bought the larger one. It'll pay for itself just by cleaning my injectors, but I justified the purchase (to my wife) by telling her that we can use it to clean her jewelery, baby pacifiers, car parts... The 20% off coupon helped too.

 

I would not put binkies in there after you've run the fuel injectors through. Yuck!

 

Stick with a good toothbrush cleaning and soak in boiling water to disinfect, or those microwave cleaning cases they come in-

[StkmltS]

I would not put binkies in there after you've run the fuel injectors through. Yuck!

 

Stick with a good toothbrush cleaning and soak in boiling water to disinfect, or those microwave cleaning cases they come in-

Think of a double-boiler... put the injectors in a small beaker-type glass jar, and fill that with the cleaning liquid. Place the glass jar in the center of the bath area and surround it with regular water so the machine can do its magic. The sound waves still work to clean whatever you put in the glass jar, you save $ by using less cleaning agent, and your ultrasonic doesn't come into contact with any funky chemicals.

[gimpydingo]

Think of a double-boiler... put the injectors in a small beaker-type glass jar, and fill that with the cleaning liquid. Place the glass jar in the center of the bath area and surround it with regular water so the machine can do its magic. The sound waves still work to clean whatever you put in the glass jar, you save $ by using less cleaning agent, and your ultrasonic doesn't come into contact with any funky chemicals.

 

 

Now that is a great idea!

[StkmltS]

Post #1 updated.

Soaking overnight in carb cleaner and running it through my ultrasonic (soaked in Lucas fuel treatment) for 20 minutes didn't fix it.

The o-ring kit I bough didn't have the right sized o-rings or pintle caps... so I don't know if that would solve it yet.

I'm getting close to just buying a new (used) injector.

[AMileHighLGT]

Have you by chance happened to check out the harness for the injector for frays, cuts or pinching?

[StkmltS]

Have you by chance happened to check out the harness for the injector for frays, cuts or pinching?

I haven't looked at it any closer than I needed to in order to remove the injector. The misfire started out in cyl#2 and moved when I swapped the injector with the one from cyl#1. If there was something wrong with a harness or wiring then I think swapping injectors wouldn't have caused the misfire to move.

[AMileHighLGT]

I haven't looked at it any closer than I needed to in order to remove the injector. The misfire started out in cyl#2 and moved when I swapped the injector with the one from cyl#1. If there was something wrong with a harness or wiring then I think swapping injectors wouldn't have caused the misfire to move.

That is true. Sorry I didn't go through and reread if you had swapped it

[StkmltS]

Haha no worries, that's how it works on the internet sometimes.

[StkmltS]

I received new o-rings in the mail on Friday. I'll put them on tomorrow even and see what happens. I'm not very confident that new o-rings will fix my problem, so....

By an amazing stroke of luck (and some praying) I stumbled on a used injector on ebay today. It was only $20 so I snagged it about as quickly as you can say holy-fuel-injector-batman! I should have it in my car by Friday.

 

Will the problem's legacy be vanquished, or will the turbo wagon still run with a stumble in it's step? Stay tuned for next weekend's long awaited finale. Same bat time, same bat channel.

[shutterbc]

I just read through this thread and now I'm interested to know if you solved the mystery.

[StkmltS]

Post #1 updated.

Summary: still not solved, checking the vacuum lines is next.

[StkmltS]

bump for HELP!

[heiche]

Does this roughness usually happen when the engine is cold, and go away when it's fully warmed up? If so, have you considered the TGV o-rings? (believe you swapped out the intake-to-head o-rings, but these are different). They are notorious for creating a vacuum leak when cold, then when things heat up, they start to seal better. The new replacement ones are much thicker and do a great job at sealing. Just a thought.

[StkmltS]

Does this roughness usually happen when the engine is cold, and go away when it's fully warmed up? If so, have you considered the TGV o-rings? (believe you swapped out the intake-to-head o-rings, but these are different). They are notorious for creating a vacuum leak when cold, then when things heat up, they start to seal better. The new replacement ones are much thicker and do a great job at sealing. Just a thought.

I wish it was that simple.

Cold, warm, hot, it doesn't seem to matter.

 

Thanks for your $.02 though.

[AMileHighLGT]

1/3/15: Tested the compression of each cylinder and got 59/60/61/60. I think my numbers were so low because I tested it cold (~65°F). If needed I'll test everything again later this week with the engine warmed up.

Your numbers for compression are almost 100 psi less than the minimum specified, a cold engine wont affect pressure that much. Did you unplug your fuel injectors first? spraying fuel in there will wash the oil off the cylinder walls creating a poor seal between cylinder wall and piston ring. DID YOU EVER RETEST COMPRESSION LIKE YOU SAID YOU WOULD? I SEE NO UPDATE ON THAT..

 

***** March 8

If the P0302 code was a quarter I'd be a wealthy man.

 

The P0301 code I got on Jan 15 must have been a fluke. Other than that one time it's been a P0302 code every time. I guess I just got too excited thinking I had the problem narrowed down to my injector that I didn't realize the code I kept having to clear was for cylinder #2.

 

• Moved the injector from cyl#2 back into cyl#1 (where it first started).
  
• Replaced the injector in cyl#2 with the new (rebuilt) one i got on ebay.
  

So, i have to ask, why you are continuing to chase #2 injector? Your diagnostic process, although very thorough, is only focusing one area. To have combustion you need good compression, good fuel, good spark, and air. You know you have good spark, and good fuel, so whats left? It couldnt be a lack of oxygen, that would require two fuct intake valves, if that were the case you would have a constant non stop misfire. You need to go back to compression test, those numbers sucked. see what i said above. disable the fuel system first.

 

Also you should consider ditching a compression test, and go straight to the leak down test. It will tell you whether your losing compression past intake or exhaust valves or piston rings. It will also tell you the percentage of leakage. I dont want to see anymore updates, that are not really an update because you are chasing the same shit. over and over and over again. If you cant leak down test the motor, then pay someone to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

***** March 8 - April 2

Every time I drive my car the misfire is noticable. The P0302 code isn't always present, and my CEL rarely comes on.

Here's what's really strange... on several occasions my drive to a destination (grocery store) as been rough, and my drive BACK was virtually flawless. One particular evening my wife and I stopped by her friend's apartment to pick up some kids clothes. Our drive heading into the apartment complex was miserable, like the car was trying to stall on me whenever the clutch was disengaged (pedal in) for long enough to let the engine slow to idle. While my wife ran inside to chat about whatever girls like to chat about, I stayed out in the car. While I sat the car idled rough, but it didn't stall. Our slow drive out of her friend's apartment complex was perfect... I'm talking about a buttery smooth idle at stop signs. The engine was fully warmed up for both 'legs' of our errand, so what could cause the engine to apparently fix itself after just a few minutes of idling? Letting the car idle in my driveway has never had a positive effect like it did here.

My car had the same type of pattern of misfire. YOU NEED TO LEAKDOWN TEST

 

 

 

***** April 8

Last weekend I sprayed carb cleaner all over my engine bay and the idle didn't noticeably change.

I'm going to attempt a DIY smoke test this upcoming weekend.

Voltage readings from my O2 sensor indicate cyl#2 is running lean, so I think my my next rabbit hole will be looking for a wiring issue.

Your o2 sensor voltage is not actually a parameter that you should be watching, because your o2 sensor is in the downpipe, it monitors post catalyst ratios for emission control.. Air fuel ratio is controlled by the forward air fuel sensor, the one that is mounted in the exhaust manifold pipe before it bolts to the up pipe ( i am not talking about the egr sensor in the up pipe right before the turbo). Air fuel ratio sensors operate differently than an oxygen sensor, and unless you can hook up an amp probe to your phone you wont know what the amperage draw of that sensor is. Also, the o2 sensor voltage you're monitoring, it does not specifically measure each individual cylinder, so stop chasing that rabbit immediately.

 

You see your numbers indicating a lean, well yeah. The oxygen drawn into the cylinder is not burned. Therefore oxygen leaves the cylinder unburned. It acts like a 'slug of oxygen' running through the exhaust, of course youre going to see lean on the post cat sensor...

[StkmltS]

Your numbers for compression are almost 100 psi less than the minimum specified, a cold engine wont affect pressure that much. Did you unplug your fuel injectors first? spraying fuel in there will wash the oil off the cylinder walls creating a poor seal between cylinder wall and piston ring. DID YOU EVER RETEST COMPRESSION LIKE YOU SAID YOU WOULD? I SEE NO UPDATE ON THAT..

 

So, i have to ask, why you are continuing to chase #2 injector? Your diagnostic process, although very thorough, is only focusing one area. To have combustion you need good compression, good fuel, good spark, and air. You know you have good spark, and good fuel, so whats left? It couldnt be a lack of oxygen, that would require two fuct intake valves, if that were the case you would have a constant non stop misfire. You need to go back to compression test, those numbers sucked. see what i said above. disable the fuel system first.

 

Also you should consider ditching a compression test, and go straight to the leak down test. It will tell you whether your losing compression past intake or exhaust valves or piston rings. It will also tell you the percentage of leakage. I dont want to see anymore updates, that are not really an update because you are chasing the same shit. over and over and over again. If you cant leak down test the motor, then pay someone to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

My car had the same type of pattern of misfire. YOU NEED TO LEAKDOWN TEST

 

 

 

Your o2 sensor voltage is not actually a parameter that you should be watching, because your o2 sensor is in the downpipe, it monitors post catalyst ratios for emission control.. Air fuel ratio is controlled by the forward air fuel sensor, the one that is mounted in the exhaust manifold pipe before it bolts to the up pipe ( i am not talking about the egr sensor in the up pipe right before the turbo). Air fuel ratio sensors operate differently than an oxygen sensor, and unless you can hook up an amp probe to your phone you wont know what the amperage draw of that sensor is. Also, the o2 sensor voltage you're monitoring, it does not specifically measure each individual cylinder, so stop chasing that rabbit immediately.

 

You see your numbers indicating a lean, well yeah. The oxygen drawn into the cylinder is not burned. Therefore oxygen leaves the cylinder unburned. It acts like a 'slug of oxygen' running through the exhaust, of course youre going to see lean on the post cat sensor...

 

After I got past your attitude and scary formatting it looks like you actually have some good points.

 

1. I haven't done another compression test yet. I didn't unplug the injectors, but I did pull the fuel pump fuse and run the engine dry before doing the test.

 

2. To be totally honest, I've been chasing injector #2 because it's easy to get to. I work two jobs (60+ hrs) so that my wife can stay home with our kids, so whenever I'm home my family usually takes priority. Most weekends my car sits in the garage and doesn't even get a second glance. I'm trying to exhaust all of my easy and cheap options before moving on to the time-consuming ones.

 

3. You're right, I probably should do a leak-down test. See #2 for why I haven't done one yet. I've been documenting my progress (or rabbit chasing) on here because I like/need input, and also because my trial-and-error education may be helpful to someone else someday. If you think I'm an idiot or you just aren't interested in watching me solve the problem then unsubscribe from the thread. Let's not start an Internet fight.

 

4. If my bank 1 (front) O2 sensor is reading >2.6 volts that means my A/F ratio is lean. Right? It's just a data point worth mentioning. I should have been more clear and said "...at least one of my cylinders is running lean, I'm assuming it's #2."

 

So... should I do a leak-down test or not? :spin:

It'll probably get to that point, but wouldn't it be much simpler if I could narrow it down to something simple like a loose or exposed wire?

[AMileHighLGT]

After I got past your attitude and scary formatting it looks like you actually have some good points.

If i come of as an abrasive ass, insert adjective here, thats just who i am. I tell you how i see it. I know i have some good points, i do this for a living.

 

1. I haven't done another compression test yet. I didn't unplug the injectors, but I did pull the fuel pump fuse and run the engine dry before doing the test.

 

That works too, as long as you disabled the system in any way is all that matter.

 

2. To be totally honest, I've been chasing injector #2 because it's easy to get to. I work two jobs (60+ hrs) so that my wife can stay home with our kids, so whenever I'm home my family usually takes priority. Most weekends my car sits in the garage and doesn't even get a second glance. I'm trying to exhaust all of my easy and cheap options before moving on to the time-consuming ones.

 

I understand work and family commitments man, i hear you. Just so you know often times exhausting the easy options first is costly, and time consuming. Im not saying youre wasting money with the mr injector stuff, im not judging you. I just think it would be cheaper and less time consuming in the long run for you if you dont do the easy and basics, you need to be chasing the essentials to good complete combustion in all your cylinders.

 

3. You're right, I probably should do a leak-down test. See #2 for why I haven't done one yet. I've been documenting my progress (or rabbit chasing) on here because I like/need input, and also because my trial-and-error education may be helpful to someone else someday.

I didnt go back to look yet There is no issue from me with you documenting on here, im doing it myself.

 

If you think I'm an idiot or you just aren't interested in watching me solve the problem then unsubscribe from the thread. Let's not start an Internet fight.

 

On the contrary!! I am happy to see you undertake this on your own, in a day and age where 'Men' aren't really men anymore in the real sense of the word, guys who would rather pay someone to figure out a problem on a car and then get dirty fixing it. Mad props dude! I am more than 'interested' to see YOU succeed at nailing this down and never experience that annoying ass misfire ever again!! I am here to provide any knowledge and assistance that I can to you, and any other member in this community. My abrasiveness has nothing to do with wanting to start an internet fight with you, do I look like Mr.Tris?

 

4. If my bank 1 (front) O2 sensor is reading >2.6 volts that means my A/F ratio is lean. Right? It's just a data point worth mentioning. I should have been more clear and said "...at least one of my cylinders is running lean, I'm assuming it's #2."

 

Well, kind of... Bank 1 just means the upstream sensor in the exhaust.

Here is what is throwing you off. You are looking at your front o2 sensor data point in your android app. Your android app is mislabeling the paramater as an oxygen sensor, even though it is not an 'oxygen sensor', it is a narrow band air fuel ratio sensor. If it were an oxygen sensor, the voltage they produce is anywhere from .1v-.9v. .1v being lean and .9v being rich. Fundamentally, air-fuel sensors work just like regular oxygen sensors, but in a mirror fashion. When the condition is rich they decrease in voltage. To the contrary, when the condition is lean their voltage spikes. This is opposite of our normal inclination to view high voltages as a rich indicator, and low ones as a lean indicator, so be careful. Subaru does not specify a perfect mixture condition in a voltage that you can compare to what you see in your app, but, in my experiences with subaru, MOST of the time about 2.4v is a perfect mix, important to note though, i have not even looked at this on a legacy so i cant guarantee that info.

 

so this is what you do to see if its at least working in a somewhat easy fashion because im pretty sure you do not have access to a digital storage oscilloscope and a low amp probe.

 

With engine running, disconnect the hose that runs from the driver side of the black intake manifold that runs up to the fuel pressure regulator. Watch the bank 1 sensor 1 parameter, look for a change, note how high it goes. Then force a rich condition by spraying a little bit of carb clean into the port that you just disconnected and note how low it goes.

 

or

 

If you have an ohm meter you could hook it up in series on the signal line, and check the milliamp draw on the sensor. perfect would be no milliamps. view every .100 milliamp above 0 as 1% lean, and every .100 milliamp under 0 as 1% rich. if you get to .800 milliamp + or - there is a problem. you would perform this test with the engine running.

 

Better yet, if you can see a/f learning a, b, c and d that would be even better.

 

So... should I do a leak-down test or not? :spin:

It'll probably get to that point, but wouldn't it be much simpler if I could narrow it down to something simple like a loose or exposed wire?

 

Yes, it would be simpler, but maybe longer, and costlier, but considering the low compression results you have already posted i would just get a leakdown done.

 

Im thirsty and its beer time. cheers!

[bharat23]

try n change the ocv valves

[MrTris]

try n change the ocv valves

 

This is the most epic response I've ever seen.

[AMileHighLGT]

This is the most epic response I've ever seen.

His one and only post

[gimpydingo]

try addin soap to da intercooler Edited April 11, 2015 by gimpydingo
couldn't resist

[gimpydingo]

maybe issue with da vtech?

 

#ynanvt

 

 

 

but seriously, watching this thread just in case I ever have these issues.

[StkmltS]

try addin soap to da intercooler

 

I thought getting soap on my intercooler would cause problems?

 

If what you're saying is right, then I've been doing it wrong the whole time by not allowing soap to get on my intercooler and maybe the lack of soap actually caused this whole mess! Does the soap provide some kind of extra lubricating that regular engine oil doesn't do?

[StkmltS]

Here's what kills me. Yesterday my commute to/from work was as smooth as butter, like everything in the world was as it should be. Then 45 minutes after I got home, my 5-min drive to scouts (I'm a leader) was horrible. What gives?

 

Wouldn't a mechanical problem be constant? (eg. burnt valves, ringland failure)

 

If I don't have to work next Saturday I'll try to finally get around to that leak down test.

[gimpydingo]

After the car warms up you would think the issue would be consistent. What was the car doing that last 5 minutes? I assume you shut the car off when you got home. Rough start? Stutter?

 

 

 

 

The soap is for keeping the IC clean. Though now I just pressure wash the entire engine with boiling industrial degreaser and only a light misting of soap on the IC for protection.

Also running a garden hose through the throttle body is a great way to get that deep engine clean; forget Chemtool, Seafoam, etc...