Rattsl's 05LGT Build thread (AutoX, track, yet good for daily)

[whitetiger]

the LGT is an overdog in DSP i think. BUt that would really be the best class for it. It would have more traction/power than nearly any other car in it.

[StoplightAssassin]

It has the power, but in SP trim it'd weigh about 3100lbs. DSP e36s and RX8s both get to 2700-2800 lbs, and about 200 - 210whp. Plus they have a ton of development time. The R32 is similar to the LGT, but it's still an also ran.

 

I do think it'd be a good fit in DSP but it'd be a really hard sell. It would just be wasted breath as no one is going to build a national level LGT regardless.

[MrTris]

9.3.7. AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSIONS AND HAND CONTROLS

Automatic transmissions are prohibited in all classes. However, the use of

alternative transmissions, including automatic transmissions, and/or hand

controls may be approved on a case-by-case basis. Such approval shall

be in writing from the Club Racing Technical Manager and shall be in the

driver’s possession at all competitions.

 

FROM: http://sebscca.com/GCR/GCR%202013.pdf

 

So, I guess, why bother?

[StoplightAssassin]

FROM: http://sebscca.com/GCR/GCR%202013.pdf

 

So, I guess, why bother?

 

The GCR is for club racing. Autocross (solo) is different.

[covertrussian]

well, F that then. the LGT is not competitive in ASP, when you can have 300WHP evos weighing 2800lbs and fitting 285 hoosiers under the fenders.

 

This is one of the reasons I am not planning on racing my Legacy. Plus I'm not rich enough to race a Subaru . Instead I just race my cheap turbo Nissan FWD, with creation of SMF class finally am a little more competitive, but damn, those civics are freaking fast.

[whitetiger]

yeah, it also helps that they are like 2000lbs.

[boxkita]

FROM: http://sebscca.com/GCR/GCR%202013.pdf

 

So, I guess, why bother?

 

Lots of autox in our area you can run in. By the time the auto-tragic is slowing you down, you'll have spent a river of money on other stuff. Goto a novice event and run your car as is. See if you like it. If you are interested, ping a guy who I can't remember. Getting old sucks

[Rattsl]

All this weight loss talk makes me want to reduce some weight off of my car, starting at the wheels (rotational mass).

 

From where I am now with wheels, it'll be very difficult without spending serious money to get something light. Currently, my wheels, albeit the terrible offset, weigh in at 20.8lbs. Anything under than that, I'd be content with 17-19lbs for a 18" wheel, rather than a 17" wheel.

 

My other question is, I'm torn between getting coilovers (to fit wider tires and get a better alignment, plus be able to corner adjust) but I've seen too many people with varying opinions. On one hand, we have people spending over 2k on KW Variants, with great adjust ability, and dampening properties, that are good for street and autox and what not. Then we have people spending a grand or less on BC, Tein, KSport, etc....with similar reviews.

 

What I want out of it, is something obviously ride height adjustable, dampening adjust, fair price range, good warranty, and not breaking the bank. I understand all these fields can't be met to reach a good product, but what's the next best if you will?

[StoplightAssassin]

I'm selling my 18x8 SSRs with Z1 Star Specs. The wheels are 17lbs each. LMK if you're interested.

 

As far as a good suspension setup that won't break the bank...you're looking at a Koni setup. The good thing about Konis is that they have free rebuilds as long as you own the car. The bad part is no one offers a height adjuster for the LGT. Possibly a Ground Control product may work, but they never returned any of my emails.

 

I would not even consider anything of BC quality. I have them on my LGT and they were a pain in the ass to get the adjustments balanced. Tein are a bit better than BC, but I'd still go with a Koni setup.

[Rattsl]

As in the Koni inserts?

 

I already have them and they work somewhat fine, but maybe I'm looking for a better ride adjustment out of the car. If I had some sort of ride height adjustment, I'd be more content about different wheel sizes and and tire sizes.

[Merc6]

As in the Koni inserts?

 

I already have them and they work somewhat fine, but maybe I'm looking for a better ride adjustment out of the car. If I had some sort of ride height adjustment, I'd be more content about different wheel sizes and and tire sizes.

 

Yeah I was not a fan of the front insert route.

[covertrussian]

yeah, it also helps that they are like 2000lbs.

 

Ha I wish! Most older FWD Nissan's are around 2500lbs and require quite a bit of modding to get to 2000lbs. My G20 (P11) comes in 30lbs shy of 3000lbs, with 6 speed swap, turbo, suspension mods I'm sure I'm probably at 3100lbs. That's for a FWD car, she's definitely a pig that loves to underteer. Plus it has a primitive rear beam with 1/8" toe in and 12-14" roll center. Front is a more sophisticated multilink setup, but with no camber adjustable upper control arms, I might just do a MacPherson strut and call it a day. Then at least I'll have control over front roll center, static camber, and have room for wider tires.

 

My previous autox car was an 01 Sentra (B15), came in around 2700lbs stock. Everything definitely felt cheaper, explains the weight loss . She did really good for her weight with 7kg/mm front & rear spring rates. Still has the rear beam issues though, which I was gonna fix with a panhard bar, but I needed to make room in the driveway so got rid of it.

 

 

My other question is, I'm torn between getting coilovers (to fit wider tires and get a better alignment, plus be able to corner adjust) but I've seen too many people with varying opinions. On one hand, we have people spending over 2k on KW Variants, with great adjust ability, and dampening properties, that are good for street and autox and what not. Then we have people spending a grand or less on BC, Tein, KSport, etc....with similar reviews.

 

It really depends on how serious your planning on getting. I personally like BC's due to feature to price point ratio, but that's not for a dedicated track car. On my Auto-x Sentra I went from Tein Basic's to BC's and was very pleased with much better ride comfort on the street (with stiffer springs) and better handling.

 

Now the reason for that was not because BC's have better dampers/springs, it was due to height adjustment being separate from preload adjustment. To get my car not to scrape over pebbles and to keep my roll center above ground, I had to raise the car up, with Tein Basic's that meant adding spring preload. Adding spring preload increases the spring rate (lbs/in), which also puts the shock out of it's happy range since your now dealing with stiffer spring rates.

 

Tein does offer spring perch adjustable coilovers, I believe they are in the $1.5k range. I would go with this for better quality and great adjustability, if your going to race a lot.

[StoplightAssassin]

As in the Koni inserts?

 

I already have them and they work somewhat fine, but maybe I'm looking for a better ride adjustment out of the car. If I had some sort of ride height adjustment, I'd be more content about different wheel sizes and and tire sizes.

 

Yes, the inserts. I run them on my M3. Next season I'm going with a Ground Control coilover conversion kit and Vorshlag plates.

 

Check out http://www.truechoicekoniracingservices.com/index.php. They can help you put together a package that will work with your current inserts. I don't know what they will suggest for the rear b/c I believe the LGT rear Konis have the spring perch built in. They offer sleeves that can change the ride height and pre-load. Changes in ride height without changing pre-load are done by picking the right length spring.

[Rattsl]

I emailed them. Now, we wait.

[boxkita]

I'm selling my 18x8 SSRs with Z1 Star Specs. The wheels are 17lbs each. LMK if you're interested.

 

As far as a good suspension setup that won't break the bank...you're looking at a Koni setup. The good thing about Konis is that they have free rebuilds as long as you own the car. The bad part is no one offers a height adjuster for the LGT. Possibly a Ground Control product may work, but they never returned any of my emails.

 

I would not even consider anything of BC quality. I have them on my LGT and they were a pain in the ass to get the adjustments balanced. Tein are a bit better than BC, but I'd still go with a Koni setup.

 

I have the BC c/o. It took 3 trips thru the corner-balance ritual to get them perfect. However, they are still limited because the high/low speed damping is not available (true 3-way c/o are >$5k). With this setup, I was clocking very respectable laptimes at local tracks. I could not drive over berms, tho, as the suspension could not handle the bump.

 

With any c/o in a track situation, expect to get a least one corner balance to get them working well. Ideally, you'd visit a shop that had some experience with local tracks and recommend a base setup. Then you visit same tracks and report how the car felt. They would adjust the base setup to you.

 

If you add race slicks to your setup, expect any reasonably priced suspension solution to be overwhelmed by the tires.

[Rattsl]

So in short, BC is still ok? The ones priced at about 1k?

[boxkita]

So in short, BC is still ok? The ones priced at about 1k?

 

My experience says yes. However, you will need to have them tuned by experts. And deal with a rather crappy ride the rest of the time. My suspension travel was about 1 inch, so all soft and all hard wasn't much difference. One positive was achieving a 50/50 cross weight balance, and moving some weight rear-ward. By the time it was finished tuning, I'd dialed in very minor throttle oversteer at the ragged edge. It still understeered under hard throttle, however, it was easily modulated.

 

If you actually want a good DD experience while having an excellent track/autox experience, you're going to spend lots of money. Which is why I suggested riding in alot of different setups to see how much blurriness you could deal with. On a badly holed road, I slow down and put on the hazards. On a smooth road (most of our roads), I drive at warp speed.

[MrTris]

My experience says yes. However, you will need to have them tuned by experts. And deal with a rather crappy ride the rest of the time. My suspension travel was about 1 inch, so all soft and all hard wasn't much difference. One positive was achieving a 50/50 cross weight balance, and moving some weight rear-ward. By the time it was finished tuning, I'd dialed in very minor throttle oversteer at the ragged edge. It still understeered under hard throttle, however, it was easily modulated.

 

If you actually want a good DD experience while having an excellent track/autox experience, you're going to spend lots of money. Which is why I suggested riding in alot of different setups to see how much blurriness you could deal with. On a badly holed road, I slow down and put on the hazards. On a smooth road (most of our roads), I drive at warp speed.

 

So, obviously not good for Tacompton.

[StoplightAssassin]

I have the BC c/o. It took 3 trips thru the corner-balance ritual to get them perfect. However, they are still limited because the high/low speed damping is not available (true 3-way c/o are >$5k). With this setup, I was clocking very respectable laptimes at local tracks. I could not drive over berms, tho, as the suspension could not handle the bump.

 

With any c/o in a track situation, expect to get a least one corner balance to get them working well. Ideally, you'd visit a shop that had some experience with local tracks and recommend a base setup. Then you visit same tracks and report how the car felt. They would adjust the base setup to you.

 

If you add race slicks to your setup, expect any reasonably priced suspension solution to be overwhelmed by the tires.

 

You don't need double, triple, or quad adjustable damping to have a good shock. Generally the first 10 or so clicks on the BCs are under damped and the last 8 or so are way over damped. One of my shocks adjusted very slowly, 2 were very quick, and only 1 seemed to adjust linearly.

 

Our timing chief had a jdm swapped gc8 on BCs and e85. I rode with him a few times and his car never stuck like it should've IMO. Many events he was only marginally faster than me. I attribute that to the shocks.

[boxkita]

You don't need double, triple, or quad adjustable damping to have a good shock. Generally the first 10 or so clicks on the BCs are under damped and the last 8 or so are way over damped. One of my shocks adjusted very slowly, 2 were very quick, and only 1 seemed to adjust linearly.

 

Our timing chief had a jdm swapped gc8 on BCs and e85. I rode with him a few times and his car never stuck like it should've IMO. Many events he was only marginally faster than me. I attribute that to the shocks.

 

Agree. I ran at 8 clicks from hard in front & 10 clicks in rear.

 

I'm not saying BC is better than something else. I bought mine because couldn't find anything else that would work as well. I bought them originally to stuff wider wheels without resorting to flares. As I got into lapping, it was very apparent that they were underperforming. However, the step up to "performing" was more money and experience than I had.

 

From riding in other cars with BC's mounted, the corner balance makes a difference. Especially when tuned for the usage.

 

Advice on here is already at custom shocks. So, unless you are duplicating someone else's setup & driving style, you are guessing. Guessing costs money. Anything else on this subject is a waste of space. Unless you drive it stock, you'll never know whether you are making progress against your goal.

[Sgt.Gator]

Stick with the Konis for a season. When you think your car can't possibly go any faster ask one of the top drivers at your autox races to co-drive your car for a weekend. Pay his entry fees if you have to. If he is in a different class with his regular ride some clubs will allow him to drive both cars, ours did.

 

After you see how he is a full second a session faster than you are and realize that even if you spend $2000 on shocks you'll never see that second, you'll save a lot of money and become a better driver.

 

I have done this on numerous occasions in both autocross and wheel to wheel racing. Same car, same day, same track conditions, and the best drivers can always beat my best time. But I watch them and we debrief, and I get faster. It costs almost nothing. However it is very humbling. A lot of guys can't take the ego smash because they just know it must be their car, not them.

 

Example: There's guy who has won the ITA and H4 championship in our conference a dozen times, Colin Kohler. He drives a 1990 Honda CRX si. I was racing a 1990 Acura Integra, similar engine power, both front wheel drive Honda. One weekend we co-drove the 1 hour enduro, he went first for 30 mins, driver swap, me the last 30. I had a data logger running.. He was 2-3 seconds per lap faster than me in my car, and he had never driven it before! At first I was amazed, and shocked. I thought my car couldn't possibly go any faster, but here I was eating humble pie. Then we sat down and reviewed the data together. He was faster because he consistently braked much later and much harder than I did. It was clear in the graphs, he was pushing the limit of the brakes better. Right away I went out and cut a second off my laps.

 

I did the same this season at The Ridge. A friend and Corvette driver in our ST class co drove the enduro with me. Again, he was a second a lap faster than me. I reviewed the data and know where he was faster and he saw where I was faster. Now we are both faster and better drivers.

 

First mod the nut behind the wheel. Then mod the car when you are as fast as the better drivers in your car. You will save a ton of money and be a faster driver.

[boxkita]

+1.

 

If you are not data-logging, riding with others, and having better drivers ride with you; you're wasting money.

 

Some of the best money I ever spent was hiring a driver coach who reviewed my data logs at the end of every day. He took 5 seconds off my laps the first time I went to ORP. Taking the quicker inside grass lap was good for a few more.

[StoplightAssassin]

One of the best things one can buy is an action cam. I'll review my runs as soon as I get back to grid and many times I'll find a place or two I can add speed or change my line a bit.

[motorbykemike]

if going w/ a pw tmic (great choice!) that opens up the turbo options to vf39/43/48

 

fmic may hurt the cars ability to cool through the radiator , something to consider

 

speaking of , a big radiator is a very good thing for lapping days

 

get an instructor to ride w/ you every chance you get

 

I have a dollar that says koni's w/ rce yellows are faster on all but a glass smooth course than a $1k range coilover

 

steer wheel shake may be coming from the front control arms rear bushing (new oem or not), I like the avo offset bushing to help get more caster and its stability as well as ease of greasing

 

hps pads will not fare well at a trackday , at least not for me in 3 cars , 05lgt AUTO BEOTCHES , 04 sti , 08 mustang gt (notice these are relatively heavy cars w/ smallish brakes - hps in a Miata would be just fine and dandy)

 

subies are not cheap to track , prep for track , upkeep for track - this is hands down - period w/ a big ol' fat ! on the end

 

lots of good info in this thread

 

cliffnotes : dd lgt , spend money that would go for mods and upkeep on not the best choice of car w/ an even wronger choice of trans

 

on a Miata!

[Rattsl]

I emailed the company that tunes the Konis, and they can convert mine over to a coilover setup for $950. I may go that route and just borrow a stock suspension setup for the car while they're getiting rebuilt.

 

As far as wheel shake, I swapped my fronts to the rear, and still experience it. Axle, bearings, and lca bushings.