injector and f pump recomendations for bnr 16g

[gtonstilts]

for lgt the oem injectors are a little bigger than obxt 520 vs 565

750cc is what i originally wanted, but i found such a good deal on the 850cc used...

im hiting 22psi at 3300rpm and taper down to 20 by redline. it is pulling crazy g/rev #'s even w a cobb sf. it was tuned by rt tunning in and they had the boost and timing a lot lower. i turned the timing and boost up, added fuel so it was 10.8 at max boost and it a half a sec faster to 60 !

ironicaly thr RT tune knocked like a bitch like 5 per gear pull, my tune dosnt knock at all i can drive it for an hr and knock sum is still 0 :-)

[fahr_side]

for lgt the oem injectors are a little bigger than obxt 520 vs 565cc.

 

 

If they are both top-feeds, they are the same part number and are identical. Different ROMs have different injector and MAF scalings but all the OEM top-feeds in turbo 2.5 motors are exactly the same.

 

 

 

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[gtonstilts]

Update, the OBXT now has a fully built motor forged everything, still running the bnr evo3 16g it is now tuned for 22.5 tapering to 21, AFR is 10.8 the DW850cc are currently running at 90% and its fast as hell zero power left on the table.

 

i have been tuning it myself via romraider this thing is consistently hitting 0-60 of 4.6 sec, starting in 2nd 5eat launches nice !

 

i have 15k on this set up, next step is meth injection.

 

havn't had it back on a dyno but a few months ago it made 325 on a mustang dyno with a "pro tune" and its a full sec faster to 60 now my way so i can only assume 350+

[fahr_side]

I would expect your EGT to climb pretty high running such high boost at high revs. You can log the front O2 sensor's heater resistance during a pull to get an estimate on this. Resistance drops as temperature goes up. Lower than 25ohms indicates overly high EGT.

I cracked the turbine on my BNR turbo by running it too hard.

 

 

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[Flinkly]

This is rediculous. Fahr_side continues to say the same things (all incredibly true, whether parts or tuning), yet you somehow (still) don't read and/or understand it.

 

Props to FS for sticking around.

 

And sincerely glad you've done what you've wanted and are happy with the results. I do 100% agree with FS that it could have been done with less parts/$ and with improved reliability, and same performance level with same turbo.

[fahr_side]

You can lead the horse to water but....

[gtonstilts]

first off im not trying to say eveyone with a 16g needs 850's , a stock block wouldn't take it for very long

 

im simply showing factually that even a 16g can max out 850's @90%

ive seen enough logs of my car as well as other EJ's in the past few months to have a handle on boost psi vs Inj DC%

 

here is a link to injector size calulator http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

 

it is well known 325 is about what the average big 16g/EJ25 puts down on a dyno @20psi

 

it is also well know that awd cars loose around 20% on the way to the wheels

this means you would need 400 crank hp to achieve 325 at the wheels

90% is the absolute max injectors should run at 80% is much better for longevity of parts

 

with this said if you use the provided link you will find 400 crank hp would put 850cc at 80%

and 750cc @ over 90%

 

using the same link you will find that even @90% DC 550cc will only get you to 290 Crank HP, which would only be maybe 240 at the wheels

and even at 100% 550 only gets you 320 crank.....

 

Second off There are so many other Forums with a much different opinion of the big 16g, it has flow capability of only 5cfm less than an 18g tdo6 !

alot of people run them 24+ psi with no problem, and running 22 to redline seems to be the norm for those with internal upgrades like myself

[Rhitter]

I would expect your EGT to climb pretty high running such high boost at high revs. You can log the front O2 sensor's heater resistance during a pull to get an estimate on this. Resistance drops as temperature goes up. Lower than 25ohms indicates overly high EGT.

I cracked the turbine on my BNR turbo by running it too hard.

 

 

Sent from a device using some software.

 

@OP, have you done this yet to see just how hot you're running it?

[fahr_side]

first off im not trying to say eveyone with a 16g needs 850's , a stock block wouldn't take it for very long

 

im simply showing factually that even a 16g can max out 850's @90%

ive seen enough logs of my car as well as other EJ's in the past few months to have a handle on boost psi vs Inj DC%

 

Just because you can run it that hard doesn't mean it's worth doing so.

 

here is a link to injector size calulator http://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

As an engineer I make calculations everyday and have great respect for the math. OTOH, after you test some of your calculated results against real-world results you learn the calcs don't always tell the whole story.

 

 

using the same link you will find that even @90% DC 550cc will only get you to 290 Crank HP, which would only be maybe 240 at the wheels

and even at 100% 550 only gets you 320 crank.....

There's more at stake here than boost pressure and fuel flow, like charge temperature and density.

Second off There are so many other Forums with a much different opinion of the big 16g, it has flow capability of only 5cfm less than an 18g tdo6 !

A TD06-18G will crush a TD05-16G on peak power even if the compressors flow within 5cfm of each other because EGBP will be far lower and VE much higher using the bigger hotside. Then there's the limit on timing you can run because of EGT, which will be much higher on the smaller turbine.

alot of people run them 24+ psi with no problem, and running 22 to redline seems to be the norm for those with internal upgrades like myself

 

 

We will see how long that lasts.

 

 

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[Flinkly]

You can log the front O2 sensor's heater resistance during a pull to get an estimate on this. Resistance drops as temperature goes up. Lower than 25ohms indicates overly high EGT.

 

oh yeah, meant to say thanks for this. it makes total sense, but took you pointing directly at it and saying it out loud.

 

gonna have to look at it soon, just cause.

[gtonstilts]

i have not checked the o2 heater resistance and the EGT was deleted for the safety of the turbo, they tend to come apart and go through.....

 

im not worried about egt for 3 reasons

 

A) im running a 10.8 AFR with colder plugs &conservative timing of 16 deg

B) it never knocks and doesn't pull any timing ever !

C) Methanol injection is very soon to come (both pre and post turbo)

[fahr_side]

I know you know this already, but for the sake of those who come after...

 

Colder plugs do not affect combustion temps or EGT.

Lower timing raises EGT significantly. This is half of how anti-lag works.

 

I wasn't worried too much about EGT either, as I also had no knock. I still overheated the turbine in my TD05H to the point the hub developed hairline cracks. If that happens, you really don't need to worry about an EGT probe breaking up, as the turbine will soon come apart without the help of foreign-object damage.

[Flinkly]

I know you know this already, but for the sake of those who come after...

 

Colder plugs do not affect combustion temps or EGT.

Lower timing raises EGT significantly. This is half of how anti-lag works.

 

I wasn't worried too much about EGT either, as I also had no knock. I still overheated the turbine in my TD05H to the point the hub developed hairline cracks. If that happens, you really don't need to worry about an EGT probe breaking up, as the turbine will soon come apart without the help of foreign-object damage.

 

You overhated the actual turbine? Oh, that changes that. I must have changed in my head what you wrote in your post and thought you had cracked your turbine housing (causing exhaust leak issue, rather than granaded turbine issue...).

[fahr_side]

Yes, I hated the shit out of that turbine.

 

 

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[Rhitter]

@ Fahr_side -> you recommend running OEM injectors at 95% IDC, when the general recommendation (that I can find) is not to go much above 80%.

 

Why is that?

 

@OP are you using a lot of oil running that high of boost?

[Flinkly]

i find it ironic that this thread has so much fantastic information. thanks Fahr_side!

 

a real diamond in the ruff

[gtonstilts]

@ OB2.5xt:

no oil is needed between 3k changes, i check it every other tank but its never low

 

i use 5w30 synthetic and it has 11mm sti pump

[fahr_side]

@ Fahr_side -> you recommend running OEM injectors at 95% IDC, when the general recommendation (that I can find) is not to go much above 80%.

 

Why is that?

 

 

Because as long as they are supported by an adequate pump, which can maintain target pressure at those IDC and flow rates, fueling is completely reliable. Injectors do not go 'static' at 100%. In tests, fuel flow increases until about 107%.

 

Sure, if money is no object just upgrade if you pass 75 or 80% IDC. IMO it's just not worth it until really necessary, not on these mild setups.

 

 

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[gtonstilts]

Problem with that is if you tune it in summer for 95% when winter time comes you will be over 100%

 

that is unless you have the IAT WGDC comp table as well as IAT Boost comp table perfect, and dial it back for low temps, which almost never happens unless you tweak those tables on same tune with very wide temp sweeps(like 10f-100f) your average dyno tunes for room temp. your average etune is done in one season with small temp sweeps diferences, most tuners dont get enough log data to make those tables perfect

 

this is why OTS tunes and many pro/etunes have winter boost creep

[fahr_side]

I probably tune more cars in the summer than I do in winter, but anyway I pay very careful attention to boost tuning and IAT comps for both timing and WGDC. I also have a lot of tunes on the sort of setups that can use the stock injectors and know well what a given boost target and fuel target will net me in terms of IDC, and what that will go up to on the coldest days we will get here. With WGDC, once you have a good baseline on a particular turbo like a 16G or VF-48 for example, the same IAT comp tables will work well on most cars. Time developing a 16G tune over 60,000km on my own car was invaluable here.

[gtonstilts]

i completely agree with reusing maps, i have applied many of the maps from my personal vehicle (05 obxt) to 08+ WRX as well as 05-06 LGT, it takes a lot of work to get the spool as fast as possible and not over boost, lots of re scaling and testing different temp/throttle/gears. once that is done it like a tool, deff a good idea to reuse the maps where applicable

[fahr_side]

Remember the '08 WRX have smaller chambers and bigger ports compared to yours, so your timing maps will likely be too aggressive.

 

 

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[gtonstilts]

it ended up being ok in max boost areas, ran the same 16 deg total, but the low/mid range from 3-5 needed about -1.5 off the base.

responded very well to avcs changes

[762x39]

I'm gearing up for a VF52 installation when spring arrives. Ive done all of my homework to obtain everything I need to support the vf52, Including research here, elsewhere on the interweb, talking with my trusted local tuner, as well as Bren Tuning Via email. Its good to get many opinions as well as expert info in order to get enough data to come to a final decision. That being said and considering my build is very much like the OP's, I would like to support Fahr Side's advice (even though you installed the 850's).

 

I think you, (and maybe some others running this set up) may like to be assured that my local tuner Ray Arroyo at TurboTek Tuning, and one of our most valued tuners, Bren Tuning both recommended running OEM injectors with the addition of a higher flowing pump because, It would not only be completely safe (via a competent tuner) but it would save quite a bit of money that would have been wasted on a measly extra 15hp if that much at all. Given this info, I have no second thoughts about installing new injectors.

 

Its important to get as much information as possible and when in doubt let the advice of the professional tuners (preferably the one your car will be tuned at) trump everything else. After all, they are the ones that will be working on your tune. Let this site merely be a starting point for your own research, and not a magic 8-ball for all of your latest impulsive questions.

 

Op, this post is directed to most of our community and not entirely toward you.

[gtonstilts]

i'm currently tuning an 02 wrx with dw65c pink 550's & vf48 it runs 18psi tapering to 16psi, the inj DC is 90% from 5k to red line.

(we wanted to run 18psi to red but couldn't inj DC was 107 at 18psi 6k rpm)

 

If he had 650's i could run 20psi and it would pick up 25hp in the mid range and more like 40hp in the higher revs

 

it comes down to what you want, but i wouldn't run more than 90% DC even with a pump, for the same reason i wouldn't run past 90% WGDC, it burns shit up the parts were engineered to never see past 90% they will take it for a while but they certainly will not last 200k like an appropriately sized set up will.

 

staying under 90% on 550's will deff limit things with a larger turbo, i would not expect to hit anywhere near 300hp safely without upgrading pump and injectors, and if you don't want big power numbers, then why bother upgrading the turbo just do stage 2 and call it a day.

 

if i was holding a microphone i would now drop it and walk off stage......