Vmax540 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I need your help... 2005 Legacy GT. new short block, heads done by machine shop, all new hoses, timing belt and components, OEM gasket kit, all new hoses on and on. Invidia Up pipe, Invidia Catless Down pipe, GrimmSpeed Cross pipe, and the accessport running stage 2. Running in the garage for a week now with constant engine misfires on cylinder 3 (same cylinder that had a burnt valve and reason for rebuild see here) http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/05-gt-head-removal-procedure-222587.html?t=222587 codes P0301, P0303, PFFFF, PFFFE and just one time a misfire on cylinder one. I have twice replaced the spark plug, ignition coil, swapped the already cleaned fuel injectors #1 to 3, did a resistance check on the ignition coils 3 wires all the way back to the main harness connector. I notice the idle speed is only ~700 rpm. I tore it back down and checked the timing marks and even counted the teeth between points as in the manual. Can timing be checked with a old school timing light and if so, how ? I am at my limits... Thanks for any help ! B.T.W. I hear an intermittent snapping or clicking sound coming from the passenger side of engine which does not necessarily change with engine speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 After the initially lining up all the timing marks how many revolutions of the crank would be necessary to line up the marks for a check ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 3 is what the book say's. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Help needed Update, Compression test with ~1 hour max running time #1 cylinder 120psi (one misfire) #3 118psi (constant engine misfires) #2 126psi #4 128psi -Do you think if the timing belt was off one tooth on the right side of engine would this cause these miss fires ? -Could it be a worn intake or exhaust cam (180k mi.) on that side in which my machine shop overlooked ? Remember it takes good combustion to seal rings http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm How Do Rings Seal Against Tremendous Combustion Pressure ?? From the actual gas pressure itself !! It passes over the top of the ring, and gets behind it to force it outward against the cylinder wall. The problem is that new rings are far from perfect and they must be worn in quite a bit in order to completely seal all the way around the bore. If the gas pressure is strong enough during the engine's first miles of operation (open that throttle !!!), then the entire ring will wear into the cylinder surface, to seal the combustion pressure as well as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'm guessing the valves may not be set right ? Do you have the service manual ? http://people.csail.mit.edu/ilh/vacation/ I would think the cams are ok. I assume you did the install of the engine ? Was the intake system removed as a unit or was it taken apart ? 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'm guessing the valves may not be set right ? Do you have the service manual ? http://people.csail.mit.edu/ilh/vacation/ I would think the cams are ok. I assume you did the install of the engine ? Was the intake system removed as a unit or was it taken apart ? First Thank you, I am pulling my hair out (what little is left) with a 20 year old who can not hardly contain his excitement. Do you have the service manual ? Yes, thanks to you ! I would think the cams are ok. I looked at them and provided all the spec's printed out from the manual for the machine shop. He hot tanked, planed, and replaced all intake valves. He is not a Subaru expert but, has been in this business over 30 years. I assume you did the install of the engine ? Yes, I have been swapping engines since the later 1970's. although, I am not without faults and could have/must of missed something. Was the intake system removed as a unit or was it taken apart I did remove the intake and replaced the O-rings (O.E.M) and was meticulous in using torque spec's. I'm thinking of putting all the plugs and coils back on and trying starting fluid/carb cleaner on a running engine around that side of the intake ? Which leads me to the question why the RPM's are so, low and also, what is the clicking sound coming from on that side ? I have been given ideas to replace all coil packs even though I have tried 3 used ones on cylinder #3 and swapped them from #1. I was told to check fuel pressure but, then why only cylinder #3 is goofy ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 those compression #s aren't too bad. you'd think #3 would have sufficient compression to run. have u tested the injector wiring to #3? BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Have you been in touch with the machine shop to tell them about this ? I wonder if it could be a sticky injector on number 3. I guess the next move is to swap injectors. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecBamf41 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 that clicking sound may be a bad cam lobe. the sound comes from the lobe coming around a smacking the bucket to open the valve, if they wear, or lashes are not set properly, this noise becomes more then just the normal subaru valve noise, its a actual issue that will cause the lobe to wear down even faster.... I once had a cam where I lost about 0.230 inches of lift and the apex of the cam had shifted 7-10 degrees when compared to its brother lobe. i would check the lash, that's something ill never let someone else again....especially a non subaru shop BNR18g on 93oct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 I already swapped the cleaned fuel injectors #1 to 3, did a resistance check on the ignition coils 3 wires all the way back to the main harness connector #3 and #1 wires check out at the same resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 that clicking sound may be a bad cam lobe. the sound comes from the lobe coming around a smacking the bucket to open the valve, if they wear, or lashes are not set properly, this noise becomes more then just the normal subaru valve noise, its a actual issue that will cause the lobe to wear down even faster.... I once had a cam where I lost about 0.230 inches of lift and the apex of the cam had shifted 7-10 degrees when compared to its brother lobe. i would check the lash, that's something ill never let someone else again....especially a non subaru shop Good point's, although the sound does not seem (?) to be a constant. I had looked at the lobes and they seemed to have their hard shinny surface. I keep going back to the thought (in my head) that the engine previously burnt that #3 intake valve and therefore lost all compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Bad Cam, certainly could not be bad enough to cause the engine to fall completely on it's face somewhere over 2.5 rpm could it.... ? What would a bad lobe do to compression numbers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Have you been in touch with the machine shop to tell them about this ? I wonder if it could be a sticky injector on number 3. I guess the next move is to swap injectors. "been in touch with the machine shop" = today I will stop by... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I already swapped the cleaned fuel injectors #1 to 3, did a resistance check on the ignition coils 3 wires all the way back to the main harness connector #3 and #1 wires check out at the same resistance. Did you also check the wiring to the fuel injector connector on #3? BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 Did you also check the wiring to the fuel injector connector on #3? did a resistance check on the 3 individual ignition coils wires all the way back to the main harness connector on both cylinder 1 & 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Did you also check the wiring to the fuel injector connector on #3? did a resistance check on the ignition coils 3 individual wires all the way back to the main harness connector on both cylinder 1 & 3. I'm guessing the coil wires checked out ok, did you also do the injector wire's for #3 ? 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 I'm guessing the coil wires checked out ok, did you also do the injector wire's for #3 ? Sorry, miss read what you and heiche were asking (thinking coil wires)...Interesting thought... I have not but, I'll look tonight and hopefully the manual shows these wires and the colors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 Newest in bold no change... Symptoms -Constant engine misfires on cylinder 3 (same cylinder that had a burnt valve) codes P0301, P0303, PFFFF, PFFFE and just one time a misfire on cylinder one. -I hear an intermittent snapping or clicking sound coming from the passenger side of engine which does not necessarily change with engine speed. -Compression test with ~1 hour max running time #1 cylinder 120psi (one misfire) #3 118psi (constant engine misfires) #2 126psi #4 128psi -Engine falls on its face above ~2500 RPM’s under load. -Idle ~700 RPM’s -Occasional pop/back fire out of exhaust when leaving off throttle. Things I have tried -Checked injector wiring and used test light #3 lit just the same as #1 injector. -Twice replaced the spark plug and the ignition coil. -Swapped the fuel injectors #1 to 3 which were already cleaned. -Did a resistance check on the ignition coils 3 wires to the main harness connector. -Rechecked the timing marks and even counted the teeth between points. Possibilites ? ? ? -If the timing belt was off one tooth on the right side of engine would this cause these miss-fires ? -Could it be a worn intake or exhaust cam (180k mi. -Fuel Injector wiring to #3 -Can timing be checked with a old school timing light and if so, how ? -Try starting fluid/carb cleaner on a running engine around that side of the intake ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 looking at your list, checking the timing belt on the pass side might be a good idea. BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Good Idea right there ^ 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 Since, the compression check now it will only pop and fire and will not start....W.T.Heck, I pulled the fuel pump fuse ! I did check the fuel injector connectors and my test light lights at the injectors. We have rechecked all timing marks (third time since, assembly the front of engine has been off...) and B.T.W. every forth revolution of the crank all marks realign except of course the marks on the belt. I checked fuel pressure and with no start it is at 45psi. Talked to the guy who done the heads and he does not feel it is mechanical says it sounds electrical and mentioned to check the EGR valve. Is there any way ? -1 the variable(?) clutch timing clog assembly on that side could be bad ? -2 the cam sensor on #1 & 3 defective ? -3 the crank sensor defective ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 will it fire if the maf sensor is (temporarily) disconnected? regarding the cam/crank sensors, i'm surprised if some of those are bad that the check engine light isn't on. BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vmax540 Posted October 10, 2014 Author Share Posted October 10, 2014 will it fire if the maf sensor is (temporarily) disconnected? regarding the cam/crank sensors, i'm surprised if some of those are bad that the check engine light isn't on. Not sure if it will fire, but I did clean the MAF with electrical contact spray and is connected, the check engine light flashes on & off I guess with the #3 cylinder miss-fire codes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMileHighLGT Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Your misfire codes are on the same bank, cylinders 1 and 3. I would check the timing marks!!!! ALSO check to make sure that your intake and exhaust cam pullies are centered on the camshafts, they have alignment pins yes, but they can also be installed without being lined up (i have seen this before). It would take two complete revolutions of the crankshaft to check those marks (two crank revolutions to one camshaft revolution) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 ^ great point (maybe a cam pulley was bolted on - but it is "on top" of the alignment pin) The idea of disconnecting the maf was just to see if it would again fire up like it did yesterday. if it does run with the maf disconnected, that can sometimes point to a large hose left disconnected/vac leak. Also, I'd still pull the codes, just to make sure you don't have any new ones related to the recent no-start situation. BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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