Something I learned re Camber

[robinlsb]

If you have sways, and coilovers, and lots of other bits,you don't need even a little negative camber, on street tires, even on the best of street tires:eek:

 

Try it,I did and WOW!!!!!

[scoobyscoodle]

I do not agree, not even a little.

[iggybdawg]

I need -3.0 in the front even with camber plates and a 25mm swaybar... for what I ask the car to do.

[liljonson]

Running -3.1 in the front and it still doesn't do what I want. I remember driving with less and it was like driving a camry

[RallyMachine]

I have BC coils, F/R whiteline sways, whiteline rear control arms and full bushings up front, running 235/40/18 Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2 (summer).

 

I run 1 psi over stock and have ~ 2.1° F and 1.5° rear camber and I have not even come close to the limit of traction on dry pavement driving on the street. That's with >300wtq too.

[robinlsb]

Get out your GEE meter.:lol:And a tire pyrometer.

[robinlsb]

I have BC coils, F/R whiteline sways, whiteline rear control arms and full bushings up front, running 235/40/18 Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2 (summer).

 

I run 1 psi over stock and have ~ 2.1° F and 1.5° rear camber and I have not even come close to the limit of traction on dry pavement driving on the street. That's with >300wtq too.

 

Well,I guess you don't know the limit on your car, and TQ don't mean nothin' in a turn:lol:

 

The next question is do you have the WL roll center kit, and the WL caster kit.

 

All of these "little" things count, as well as the WH rear toe kit.

 

And I am running Mich Pilot SS's,which Tirerack says is a better tire

 

All I can say is that the real question is camber change underload.,and of course,driving style.

[scoobyscoodle]

To think that you can get away with zero camber all around, on a performance car on the street and not be losing traction is about as insane as thinking you can actually use -3 degrees on DOT legal street tires.

 

The more compliance you have, the less you need static negative camber. Therefore, you add sways, coilovers, and low compliance poly, you're only increasing your cars need and ability to utilize higher amounts of negative camber.

[robinlsb]

To think that you can get away with zero camber all around, on a performance car on the street and not be losing traction is about as insane as thinking you can actually use -3 degrees on DOT legal street tires.

 

The more compliance you have, the less you need static negative camber. Therefore, you add sways, coilovers, and low compliance poly, you're only increasing your cars need and ability to utilize higher amounts of negative camber.

 

Like I said, camber change under load. You could try it, or not. But I am kinda like the duck that swims up river, while all else swim down

 

But then, that is why I won numerous races and autox championships as a "kid" , and even an as a one eyed senior, collecting SS, won the 100cc unlimited championship in karts,at my club, in 2013:p

 

Do what you want to do, but a pyrometer will tell the tale.

[RallyMachine]

Well,I guess you don't know the limit on your car, and TQ don't mean nothin' in a turn:lol:

 

The next question is do you have the WL roll center kit, and the WL caster kit.

 

All of these "little" things count, as well as the WH rear toe kit.

 

And I am running Mich Pilot SS's,which Tirerack says is a better tire

 

All I can say is that the real question is camber change underload.,and of course,driving style.

 

Torque doesn't matter when you're powering out of a turn?? One of the major advantages of AWD is that it allows you to get on the power sooner going through a turn... Honestly I don't care to know the limit of my car on a public road, that's when things can get sketchy/risky. On my car the limit is far above what I would consider safely attainable and with all of the suspension mods I have the limit is a lot less forgiving than stock (ie lift throttle oversteer, snap oversteer etc)

 

I have the roll center, caster, LCA bushings, rear toe and camber arms and steering rack bushings.

 

Granted the Pilot SS are incredible tires which are probably grippy to the point where camber becomes a bit irrelevant lol.

 

But regardless of upgrades if you're running 0° of camber in hard turns your outside wheels will gain positive camber which effectively reduces the contact patch of those tires and thus grip. If it were negative in a corner camber approaches 0° which increases contact patch.

 

To each their own though, sometimes I'm not a huge fan of running so much camber because straight line performance becomes a bit wonky but the cornering grip is amazing.

[GTEASER]

Ibtb.

[robinlsb]

Torque doesn't matter when you're powering out of a turn?? One of the major advantages of AWD is that it allows you to get on the power sooner going through a turn... Honestly I don't care to know the limit of my car on a public road, that's when things can get sketchy/risky. On my car the limit is far above what I would consider safely attainable and with all of the suspension mods I have the limit is a lot less forgiving than stock (ie lift throttle oversteer, snap oversteer etc)

 

I have the roll center, caster, LCA bushings, rear toe and camber arms and steering rack bushings.

 

Granted the Pilot SS are incredible tires which are probably grippy to the point where camber becomes a bit irrelevant lol.

 

But regardless of upgrades if you're running 0° of camber in hard turns your outside wheels will gain positive camber which effectively reduces the contact patch of those tires and thus grip. If it were negative in a corner camber approaches 0° which increases contact patch.

 

To each their own though, sometimes I'm not a huge fan of running so much camber because straight line performance becomes a bit wonky but the cornering grip is amazing.

 

I didn't say zero camber, I am using just a tad in the front. The question is, tire contact. The real question is, just how much positive camber is experienced under hard cornering. Maybe my suspension is tuned better than others, don't know.

 

As for power out of a turn, umm, a front LSD is the only way, something that is lacking in a 2005 LGT. A single rear LSD at speed is a bear to handle:lol: It tends to point you the wrong way;)

[RallyMachine]

Maybe so on the front LSD, but with my current setup it is pretty damn hard to spin the inside front tire or even the rear tires in a hard corner.

 

On my previous a/s tire mild camber setup with the same suspension components I got to experience lift throttle oversteer which I don't care to experience again lol. I'm sure a lot has to do with tire but for me there is a noticeable benefit when moderate amounts of negative camber are added... Again, to each their own, I'm glad you found a setup that works for you!

[liljonson]

For regular driving I do agree crazy camber isn't needed. But if your autocrossing and I guess tracking the car it helps alot. I saw a noticeable improvement in my times and I am ahead of people that I wasn't before the camber change. I wish these cars came with front LSD. 1400+ is alot to pay for.

 

I know I suck at driving but camber makes me look like a race car driver and I'm ok with that.

[kirshnerd]

On the streets, for DD use, if you're not driving recklessly, then yes, you're right.

For anything more (autox, lapping etc) then you really want more camber if possible.

 

I play in the middle zone with -1.7° F and -0.7 R, only because I want my tires to last as I DD the car 99% of the time. If I had a racecar or a toy car, then I'd rock WAY more camber all around for DEM CORNERS BRAH.

[FPerron]

This is a little ridiculous. No matter how fast you "think" you drive on the street, the only reason to increase negative camber over stock on a DD is to gain clearance for the tops of extra wide tires. For the track, you should run track tires and follow the camber recommendations provided by the tire manufacturer.

[robinlsb]

Maybe so on the front LSD, but with my current setup it is pretty damn hard to spin the inside front tire or even the rear tires in a hard corner.

 

On my previous a/s tire mild camber setup with the same suspension components I got to experience lift throttle oversteer which I don't care to experience again lol. I'm sure a lot has to do with tire but for me there is a noticeable benefit when moderate amounts of negative camber are added... Again, to each their own, I'm glad you found a setup that works for you!

 

Maybe this will help.So I have very stiff bars,coilovers,etc.There is less travel with CO's,sooo,where is the Camber change???? I have always felt safer with less grip;)

 

[KartRacerBoy]

Robin, you keep talking about the tire pyrometer, but you say nothing about what it recorded. And frankly, the only meaningful data regarding camber is lap time. That is always the final measure if you're talking about competition.

[RallyMachine]

No matter how stiff your suspension is it will still flex under heavy lateral load as will the chassis (an almost 2 ton sedan has a habit of doing this). If you think about it, at 1G on a skid pad it's as if the same force as if the weight of you car is being applied on the side.

[FPerron]

No matter how stiff your suspension is it will still flex under heavy lateral load as will the chassis (an almost 2 ton sedan has a habit of doing this). If you think about it, at 1G on a skid pad it's as if the same force as if the weight of you car is being applied on the side.

 

Absolutely. The object of camber on a race car is to optimize tire contact patch over the range of deflection experienced on a particular track. This will always be a compromise because - for example - in low deflection situations (braking at the end of a straight) too much camber will reduce the contact patch to the point where brake lockup occurs. Blah, blah. And I reiterate that none of this really applies to street driving.

[robinlsb]

Robin, you keep talking about the tire pyrometer, but you say nothing about what it recorded. And frankly, the only meaningful data regarding camber is lap time. That is always the final measure if you're talking about competition.

 

We are talking about street.But I have a good butt dyno,and I also can read a speedo.I can also test,on the same on/off ramp.SOOOOO,if I can get another 5 mph on a ramp,without any wild feed back,that would indicate I am onto something.

 

Not only that,but as shown in the vid,the camber occurs at max compression,which does NOT occur with stiff sways and CO's.

 

No body roll,coupled with little spring travel,equals a very small change in camber.