Installing a grounding kit

[krot84]

Hey guys

Don't know if it's the right section, however I've just ordered the Pivot raizin volt stabilizer.

I also get 3 grounding wires included.

Could you give me an advice for what parts should i get grounded under the hood?

 

Thanks

 

[Perscitus]

I'd go alternator, engine block, chassis (bare metal somewhere, expose it if you have to) and transmission body if you can reach it.

 

For the VS, as close to the battery as possible. Best is to tuck it in behind the battery/battery tray or 3M double-sided tape it to the back of the battery, away from the elements. Theoretically you could ground the VS to the alternator as well but that's probably overkill.

[DonnyJagaru]

I had to look this up. Man, that's a serious earthing kit! I don't know if there's much benefit to earthing the tranny (especially if its manual). I'd consider the engine block close to or at the starter motor for one (its the highest current draw). The other to the alternator bracket couldn't hurt. The third to the body as close to the battery as you can muster. The ham radio guys will sometimes put a grounding strap from the hood to the firewall. This helps keeps the ignition noise out of radio reception.

[krot84]

Thanks guys. for now I have the starter and the chassis grounded by the oem negative wire, does it make a sense to add more wires to these parts?

Btw DonnyJagaru my car is 4eat and not manual as mentioned under my avatar.

[Fast Eddie]

I'd consider the engine block close to or at the starter motor for one (its the highest current draw).

 

Does the kit not come with instructions? Hopefully a fancy pants kit would have some research behind it.

 

As for the starter, there is a ground wire for it right there. If that ground were bad, you'd know it by virtue of starter performance. The issues with many cars is grounding of computer actuators and on some, computer inputs that ground to the engine block. In fact some of these cars ground the knock sensor to the block and I had a problem with the circuit, so I made my own ground for the knock sensor and you know what it cost? Nothing, because I had all the stuff already in my shop. If you bought everything at autozone it wouldn't cost $20. All I did was solder an 18 gauge length of wire to the pigtail shield (you have to carefully pick it open) and put a ring terminal on the other end. I heat shrinked the pigtail closed and attached the ring terminal to the grounded wire bundle on the intake manifold. I used wire loom on the wire so everything looks factory.

[DonnyJagaru]

I'm like you Fast Eddie and I generally brew my own electrical, and electronic. I just assumed the kit was universal, or like much of these aftermarket performance improvement products, have instructions for Chevy or V8 Ford and nothing else. As for Subaru starters, these cars must have the slowest turning starters I've ever encountered. I don't know if its intentional or if the guy who designed the electric motor didn't take design cues from others.

[Fast Eddie]

As for Subaru starters, these cars must have the slowest turning starters I've ever encountered. I don't know if its intentional or if the guy who designed the electric motor didn't take design cues from others.

 

I don't think a grounding kit is going to help with this. If there's a problem with the starter ground, you're going to know it.

 

Funny you say this. My 09 does seem to turn over slowly, but my 00 doesn't have an issue. Both cars have recently installed batteries (less than a year). I never thought much of it because they both always start right up.

[Wheelbuilder_25]

I think my 09i turns slowly as well. It always catches and starts, but it seems way slower than the 97 Outback I had.

It might help if the OEM straps have corrosion or are missing. How do the battery terminals and starter terminals look ?

[Fast Eddie]

I put the battery in a year ago and cleaned up the terminals real good. Starting voltage dips to 8.xx volts so that's OK.

 

I haven't messed with the starter wires at all. I have seen corrosion and burned up starter wires on other cars.

 

It always starts.

[DonnyJagaru]

I'm pretty sure the starter motor in my car is designed to turn the engine over slower than normal. Like you say, it starts every time so no worries. I put a brand new Interstate battery in late last summer and the electrical is 100% so I know its just the nature of the beast. When the previous battery died while camping, I was able to push start the car. This actually surprised me as many new, and not so new, cars won't allow this any more. That said, dead/weak batteries in Subarus aren't a good idea as the airbag computer gets confused and shuts down.

[nstg8r]

When I had my stereo upgraded, I had them add a 4awg ground cable from the battery to chassis. Personally, I don't think those voltage stabilizers (just a cap, really) do anything in modern vehicles. You'd be better off getting a higher amperage alternator or adding a battery if you feel you need more or cleaner power.

[krot84]

Well that's not expensive so i thought i'd give it a try, because I've read some good reviews.

[Fast Eddie]

When I had my stereo upgraded, I had them add a 4awg ground cable from the battery to chassis.

 

Why not just run it straight to the amplifier? I always thought it was very foolish to ground sensitive electronics to the chassis of a vehicle.

 

I don't think those voltage stabilizers (just a cap, really) do anything in modern vehicles.

 

A capacitor is a reservoir. It is in no way, shape, or form, a "voltage stabilizer." That's marketing bull.

 

I agree that a properly installed system with a properly upgraded electrical system has no need for a capacitor. But they do help a little on a marginal system.

 

You'd be better off getting a higher amperage alternator or adding a battery if you feel you need more or cleaner power.

 

Higher output alternator is the real tip. I tell this to every single person that I install for, and every single person waits until their alternator burns up prematurely to heed my advice.

 

That being said, these megawatt sound systems that are in vogue are stupid. To me it's nothing but a dick swinging contest because they almost always sound terrible. With speakers available with 95 dB/watt efficiency, 50 watts/ channel can blow a jumbo jet off the runway. Spend your money on speakers, not ridiculous amplifiers. Anything more than 500 watts total (including subwoofer) is extreme overkill and nothing more than a phallic display.

[Fast Eddie]

Here's some interesting subwoofers that you might be able to install in the rear deck of some cars.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w69-1042j-6x9-subwoofer--264-837

 

Two in parallel is 4 ohms, and 90 dB/watt (translates to 93 dB/watt in parallel) so a 100 watt amplifier is sufficient.

 

You can cut metal with a jigsaw and a proper metal cutting blade, if you dare. Go slow. Measure first and measure twice. Make a template on paper first (if the speakers don't already come with one) and make sure the template is correct. Tape the template in place (have a spare template or two) and cut. Wear safety glasses.

 

I'm intrigued by this woofer because you can get a cutoff frequency of 43 Hz with a 0.4 cubic foot sealed enclosure. http://www.parts-express.com/pioneer-ts-sw251-10-shallow-mount-subwoofer--297-290

 

 

For a sub amp, digital is the way to go. A digital amp (class D) operates at 85%+ efficiency, while a class AB amp is around 60% efficient at full power and much lower efficiency at lower outputs. So a 200 watt digital amp will only use a lot of power when you really need it, and produce much less heat.

 

Speaking of power, if your amplifier claims "1000 watts RMS" and has a 20 amp fuse, then guess what - it isn't even close to 1000 watts. 20 amp fuse = 270 watt draw so it's 200 watts tops. 30 amp fuse = 405 watt draw so probably 300 watts tops. In fact, a 1000 watt RMS amplifier would draw over 70 amps at 13.5 volts if it were 100% efficient.

 

For door speakers, use these.

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB651/Polk-Audio-db651.html?tp=95

 

92 dB/ watt, so they'll work great even with stock radio. Used with a subwoofer crossed over at 125 Hz, with a 4x50 watt RMS class AB amplifier driving the Polks and you will wish for nothing more.

 

I've always used Polk speakers. High efficiency and clear sound makes a lot more sense than big amplifiers. The Polk 6x9s play so loud and clear and you don't need a sub. Everyone thinks I have a sub in my Hot Rod Lincoln, but it's the Polk 6x9s being driven by 100 wattsx2 of clean power. Door speakers are crossed over at 125 Hz and the whole system is loud enough to make your ears bleed, while still being crystal clear.

 

Matching components and quality installation are what really make a car audio system work great.

[Fast Eddie]

Here's some interesting subwoofers that you might be able to install in the rear deck of some cars.

 

http://www.parts-express.com/tang-band-w69-1042j-6x9-subwoofer--264-837

 

Two in parallel is 4 ohms, and 90 dB/watt (translates to 93 dB/watt in parallel) so a 100 watt amplifier is sufficient.

 

You can cut metal with a jigsaw and a proper metal cutting blade, if you dare. Go slow. Measure first and measure twice. Make a template on paper first (if the speakers don't already come with one) and make sure the template is correct. Tape the template in place (have a spare template or two) and cut. Wear safety glasses.

 

I'm intrigued by this woofer because you can get a cutoff frequency of 43 Hz with a 0.4 cubic foot sealed enclosure. http://www.parts-express.com/pioneer-ts-sw251-10-shallow-mount-subwoofer--297-290

 

 

For a sub amp, digital is the way to go. A digital amp (class D) operates at 85%+ efficiency, while a class AB amp is around 60% efficient at full power and much lower efficiency at lower outputs. So a 200 watt digital amp will only use a lot of power when you really need it, and produce much less heat.

 

Speaking of power, if your amplifier claims "1000 watts RMS" and has a 20 amp fuse, then guess what - it isn't even close to 1000 watts. 20 amp fuse = 270 watt draw so it's 200 watts tops. 30 amp fuse = 405 watt draw so probably 300 watts tops. In fact, a 1000 watt RMS amplifier would draw over 70 amps at 13.5 volts if it were 100% efficient.

 

For door speakers, use these.

 

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_107DB651/Polk-Audio-db651.html?tp=95

 

92 dB/ watt, so they'll work great even with stock radio. Used with a subwoofer crossed over at 125 Hz, with a 4x50 watt RMS class AB amplifier driving the Polks and you will wish for nothing more.

 

I've always used Polk speakers. High efficiency and clear sound makes a lot more sense than big amplifiers. The Polk 6x9s play so loud and clear and you don't need a sub. Everyone thinks I have a sub in my Hot Rod Lincoln, but it's the Polk 6x9s being driven by 100 wattsx2 of clean power. Door speakers are crossed over at 125 Hz and the whole system is loud enough to make your ears bleed, while still being crystal clear. Total audio power is 400 watts RMS class AB (uses 2 30 amp fuses) and is capable of clear sound reproduction at sound levels of 115 dB inside the car. How loud do you want it?

 

Matching components and quality installation are what really make a car audio system work great.

[DonnyJagaru]

FastEddie, I admire your candor. I also agree on running a separate + and - power leads for powering rear electronics. I did that recently and was playing around with a sub box I borrowed last night and there's plenty of "clean" power in the back.

 

I had to laugh at your comments about over-rated amplifier power. Another thing to consider is there's no such thing as an RMS Watt. RMS applies only to Voltage readings and they are only relevant when applying AC to Ohms law. I've tried explaining this to less learned bass-o-philes with limited success.

 

Also, adding electrolytic capacitors to smooth power is generally a waste of time. If you do the math, as I did many years ago, I think you'll find that adding a second battery to the rear of the vehicle is really only going to make a difference. I did this years ago in one car and wired a relay to engage the battery when the car was running to ensure a) it was charged b) it didn't kill the vehicle's battery. Was it worth the effort? In my opinion, no.

[Fast Eddie]

 

I had to laugh at your comments about over-rated amplifier power. Another thing to consider is there's no such thing as an RMS Watt. RMS applies only to Voltage readings and they are only relevant when applying AC to Ohms law. I've tried explaining this to less learned bass-o-philes with limited success.

 

I'm am electrical engineer and I have designed audio amplifiers so let me clarify.

 

Power ratings are measured into a dummy load. So when a manufacturer claims "100 watts RMS into a 4 ohm load" they actually mean 20 volts RMS into a 4 ohm dummy load (actually an array of big resistors). Speaker impedances are anything but uniform with regard to frequency, and a "4 ohm nominal" woofer can vary in impedance from 2 to 50 ohms or more across its frequency range. Of course this directly affects the power that is delivered to it, because an amplifier's output is referenced to the signal's input voltage.

 

This is a totally different concept from an amplifier that claims "1000 watts RMS" and has a 20 amp fuse. This represents a physical impossibility, plain and simple (assuming the amplifier runs off 12 volts and is intended to drive a 4 ohm nominal load). Ohms law clearly indicates this.

 

Notice that my old amplifier (got it for free and fixed it myself she's a nice old school amplifier) runs off two 30 amp feeds, yet claims only 100 watts RMS x 4 into 4 ohms. (It is 1 ohm stable, bridgeable.) This does not violate Ohm's law in any way, shape, or form; in fact it indicates that there is generous headroom available.

 

So you can quibble about "watts RMS" ad nauseum, but to do so would be to miss my point.

[Fast Eddie]

 

Also, adding electrolytic capacitors to smooth power is generally a waste of time. If you do the math, as I did many years ago, I think you'll find that adding a second battery to the rear of the vehicle is really only going to make a difference. I did this years ago in one car and wired a relay to engage the battery when the car was running to ensure a) it was charged b) it didn't kill the vehicle's battery. Was it worth the effort? In my opinion, no.

 

Capacitors are trendy, but overrated.

 

The whole thrust of my rant is to demonstrate that high efficiency speakers work way better than high power amplifiers. How many people have come to me with fried alternators; a direct result of running poorly installed arrays of behemoth amplifiers. Bigger alternator and beefed up wiring is the way to go for a large audio installation. I adapted a 200 amp alternator from a Windstar to my Lincoln; and yes it required drilling, grinding, and a complete alternator rewire. I got the alternator harness from the junkyard along with the alternator.

 

Another alternative is to run two alternators with two batteries.

 

But you can still get a whole lot of clean sound from efficient speakers and a modest amount of power, if you match your components wisely.

[nstg8r]

Why not just run it straight to the amplifier? I always thought it was very foolish to ground sensitive electronics to the chassis of a vehicle.

 

Because you're supposed to keep ground cables as short as possible to reduce resistance and noise. But I agree, all the sensitive stuff should be grounded directly via the engine ground. I would then increase the size of the engine ground cable to the battery.

 

A capacitor is a reservoir. It is in no way, shape, or form, a "voltage stabilizer." That's marketing bull.

 

I agree that a properly installed system with a properly upgraded electrical system has no need for a capacitor. But they do help a little on a marginal system.

 

Once again, I'm agreeing with you here, but most of the devices marketed as voltage stabilizers are just boxes stuffed with capacitors.

 

 

Going back to the OP's question; I would say yes to the "big 3" ground upgrade since it's cheap and easy enough, but I wouldn't waste my time with the voltage stabilizer. Here's someone else's take on the subject: http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_1010_voltage_stabilizers_can_increase_power_and_torque_fact_fiction/viewall.html

[Fast Eddie]

Because you're supposed to keep ground cables as short as possible to reduce resistance and noise.

 

Am I the only one here that sees the irony in this statement?

 

Keeping the ground cable short by grounding it to the chassis is completely counterproductive. You're not "keeping it short" at all; the chassis is then the conductor. The whole idea of grounding to the battery is to take the chassis out of the circuit. If you want to introduce resistance and noise, ground your big amplifier to the chassis.

 

But I agree, all the sensitive stuff should be grounded directly via the engine ground.

 

Wrong again. Everything should be grounded to the negative terminal of the battery as directly as possible.

 

I would then increase the size of the engine ground cable to the battery.

 

Actually that cable is intended to provide a ground for the starter motor, and it is best left to that function.

 

Once again, I'm agreeing with you here, but most of the devices marketed as voltage stabilizers are just boxes stuffed with capacitors.

 

Marketing is bullshit. The amplifier is full of big capacitors in its power supply. If you need a big capacitor in your trunk, then either your system is way too big or your installation leaves something to be desired.

[DonnyJagaru]

Actually, the banks of capacitors would be more useful inside the amplifier between the switchmode power supply portion and the actually audio power amplifier.

[Fast Eddie]

Actually, the banks of capacitors would be more useful inside the amplifier between the switchmode power supply portion and the actually audio power amplifier.

 

Actually, you are 100% correct.

[DonnyJagaru]

I did want to question your one comment Fast Eddie. Now I haven't measured it myself, but I'm *guessing* the resistance of the car's chassis say from the trunk to the primary ground lead under the hood, could very well be less than an 6 or 8 AWG copper wire. I'm guessing there will be some variance of course, that said, the copper wire will certainly be more predictable as far as resistance goes.

 

Blah, blah...

[Perscitus]

OP, if you want to pickup a good voltage stabilizer, give this one a shot:

 

https://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1289791

 

You can email Eric directly e r i c t i o h v s 'at' g m a i l . c o m and he'll ship one to you.

 

Build quality and components are top notch! Mention I sent you.

He shipped me two early last year.

 

Installed one in a 2003 Toyota and another in my Legacy, they work great, especially with a grounding kit.

[krot84]

Hey again

I've just installed the voltage stabilizer.

It came with 3 grounding cables.

As you can see on the photo, i've used one wire to connect to the screw above the left headlight, the second one on the right side of the intake manifold and the last one from the intake manifold to the right suspension.

The changes i've encountered in the cars behavior are as follows:

1. Much more stable engine revs when standing still at traffic lights - solid 650 rpm - as soon as i stop they drop to 650, before that they use to drop really slowly from 900 to barely 650.

2. Faster and smother gear shifts.

That's all for now, I'll try to measure the fuel consumption later on.

What other things may i encounter that i haven't yet ?