Troubleshooting Cool Weather Squealing

[sunny5280]

With the cooler weather coming on I've noticed my 1997 2.5L 4AT squeals for a few minutes when I first start it up and begin driving. After a slight warm up the squealing disappears. During this time everything appears to be operating correctly. No indicator lights, no loss of power / performance / no hesitation.

 

I believe the problem is a failing bearing in one of the following: Alternator, water pump, power steering pump, or air conditioning compressor. There's also the possibility the belts are slipping though I think a bad bearing in one of the aforementioned items is more likely.

 

My question is how can I troubleshoot which of these components, if any, is the cause. Some observations:

 

• The noise happens when the vehicle is started and sitting stationary. I feel this would eliminate the power steering pump as the noise exists without moving the steering wheel.
  
• The noise is present with or without the air conditioning on. This would lead me to eliminate the air conditioning compressor.
  

I am open to the idea the power steering pump or air conditioning compressor could still be the cause. I don't want to completely rule them out based on my above thoughts. I did raise the hood and attempted to locate the noise by ear. However all of these components are fairly close to one another and I was unable to isolate it. Does anyone know of a better way?

[snederhiser]

Hello;

I would take a few moments and check the belt tension. Sounds like the alt/ps belt is loose, Steven.

[sunny5280]

Hello;

I would take a few moments and check the belt tension. Sounds like the alt/ps belt is loose, Steven.

Thanks for the recommendation. I did check the belt tension and they seem fine. In fact possibly too tight?

[sunny5280]

Update: This afternoon I decided to look into this a little bit further and noticed it appeared really easy to change the alternator / power steering belt. A few bolts later and I had it off. Started it up and the noise is still present. Looks like it's either the water pump or air conditioning compressor. When I have some time I think I'll pull the belt for those items and see. My money is on the water pump.

[snederhiser]

Hello;

First check the air cond belt but you could be right and need to check the timing belt and water pump/rollers. I would not dally, you could save alot of coin instead of letting it get worse, Steven.

[sunny5280]

Hello;

First check the air cond belt but you could be right and need to check the timing belt and water pump/rollers. I would not dally, you could save alot of coin instead of letting it get worse, Steven.

 

I did inspect the belts when I was working on things today. They look OK and don't appear to be the source of the noise. I have an appointment scheduled with my mechanic on Monday. It's not a serious issue at the moment and I definitely want to get it resolved as ignoring it isn't going to fix it I do have another vehicle I can use in the event I notice it getting worse.

[twisty]

too tight belts will squeal as well sometimes. i found that out on my impala. id say check for correct tension, then try to locate the generation of the sound with your face down in there to see if you can tell which one its coming from. could be worn on the V or teeth side and squealing from slippage.

[Stevo F]

Sometimes you can locate a noise from a belt driven accessory by placing the end of 2X4 on each accessory and putting your ear up to the other end of the 2X4 and the wood should transmit the noise when you put it on the noisy accessory. At that seems to work sometimes. I was able to isolate a noisy alternator on the Nissan Pulsar we used to have before I got rid of it.

[sunny5280]

Thanks for all the suggestion guys. I went and checked the tension of the belts. It appears to be OK. At this point I'm fairly certain the problem is in the water pump or one of the idler pullys for the timing belt. I have an appointment with my mechanic scheduled for monday. Since I don't know the history of the timing belt I think I'm going to have him replace all of it (water pump, pullys, tensioner, and belt) just to be on the safe side.

[twisty]

do the oil seals while the front is all taken apart as well

[sunny5280]

do the oil seals while the front is all taken apart as well

 

Are these prone to failure? What would happen if they were to fail? Would it cause any serious engine damage? While I don't have an issue doing maintenance work I don't want to be proactively replacing things if there's not a compelling reason to do so.

[snederhiser]

Hello;

Recently had a customer come in for a leaking water pump on a PT Cruiser. I bought a complete timing kit w/water pump. I ordered new cam seals and installed these, took me an extra hour in labor. Seals get old, crack from the heat and start to leak. This is called preventative mantainance and that car should roll another 80k miles. Result is a happy customer that will bring me work in the future, Steven.

[sunny5280]

Hello;

Recently had a customer come in for a leaking water pump on a PT Cruiser. I bought a complete timing kit w/water pump. I ordered new cam seals and installed these, took me an extra hour in labor. Seals get old, crack from the heat and start to leak. This is called preventative mantainance and that car should roll another 80k miles. Result is a happy customer that will bring me work in the future, Steven.

 

I agree preventative maintenance is a good thing and I fully support doing it where appropriate. However the car has 171K miles on it meaning I could spend a small fortune replacing parts which may have many years of service life left in them.

 

The question is: How likely is it these seals will fail in the foreseeable future and should they fail what will happen? I know if the timing belt (either the belt itself or the other components which support the belt) fails serious engine damage (to the point of requiring an engine replacement) could result. Especially when a failure could occur without warning. Thus spending a few hundred dollars on preventative maintenance to replace all of the associate components has value.

 

If these seals fail will they do so is a catastrophic way which would cause serious damage? Or will there be symptoms beforehand which will allow me the opportunity to have it repaired before a problem occurs? If the former then the money is well spent.

 

Preventative maintenance on a vehicle with so many miles / age is a balancing act. I fully support it but I don't want to sink thousand of dollars into the vehicle on the chance something could fail and, if it should, would be an inconvenience as opposed to causing even more problems.

[snederhiser]

Hello;

First of all, cars are increadable money pits and anything you can do to extend the life is smart money. I buget at least $100.00 dollars a month on my Legacy, this covers tires, parts, and oil changes. At 170k your car should have been checked out and all timing components, water pump, cam/crank seals replaced. This is a minimun on any modern car. My Legacy has 180k on the clock and expect at least another 100k with regular service, Steven.

[sunny5280]

Hello;

First of all, cars are increadable money pits and anything you can do to extend the life is smart money. I buget at least $100.00 dollars a month on my Legacy, this covers tires, parts, and oil changes. At 170k your car should have been checked out and all timing components, water pump, cam/crank seals replaced. This is a minimun on any modern car. My Legacy has 180k on the clock and expect at least another 100k with regular service, Steven.

 

I am very much aware of how much money it takes to maintain a vehicle. I own a BMW X5 and, in comparison, the Subaru is inexpensive. With that said I am not going to endlessly replace parts under the guise of preventative maintenance unless there's a compelling reason to do so. Which is why I'm asking:

 

1. How frequently do these seals fail?
   
2. Will there be some warning of an impending failure?
   
3. What possible issues could arise if these seals fail?
   
4. What is the cost savings by having these seals replaced while the mechanic is replacing the timing belt components?
   

If the seals rarely fail then, barring any other reason to replace them, does it make sense to incur the cost to do so now? If the failure of the seals results in a mere oil leak then it likely doesn't make sense to incur the cost now. If the cost savings to do it now compared to later is $1,500 then it might make sense to do it now.

 

Again I don't mind performing preventative maintenance but it is a balancing act. I ride dirt bikes as a hobby. My brother and I do a lot of maintenance on the bikes. Probably more than is reasonable. We often discuss which parts we should buy and put on the shelf in the event we might need them in a pinch (so we wouldn't ruin a weekend of riding due to not having a part). Some parts, such as extra tubes and levers, make sense. Others, such as a piston, rings, and cylinder, do not. For all the parts we thought about we decided it would probably be less expensive to buy another motorcycle.

 

The same thought applies to this Subaru. I bought it as a run around car. Do I want to sink thousands of dollars into it performing preventative maintenance on parts which may have several years of service life in them? Where does it stop? Should I replace the alternator? Power steering pump? I could spend thousands of dollars rebuilding this car under the guise of preventative maintenance.

[sunny5280]

Looks as if it was one of the timing belt idler pulleys. I'm having my mechanic replace all of them, the tensioner, water pump, and belt.

 

Update: Just picked up the car from the mechanic and the three idler pulleys were starting to show signs of wear with one, the one with the teeth, beginning to seize (couldn't spin the pulley by hand). This is the second 1997 Outback I've owned where I had to replace these pulleys around this mileage (171K for this one, 190K for the previous one). Seems like it might be a wise idea to replace these parts every other timing belt change.