Brake Pads

[Stevo F]

I've noticed the brakes on my Legacy require a good bit of force to stop the car. I'm guessing the previous owner had some harder pads put in. I pulled off one of the rear pads tonight and found it to be less than 50% lining left and the backing plate was pretty rusty- been on there awhile. The rotors all around look in good shape- not grooved or warped

 

I'm not looking for a brake upgrade- just some softer daily- driver pads that will firmly stop the car. I put Autozone's Duralast Gold on both our Honda Accord and my Corolla and I like really like the feel of these much better. Right after putting them on, I had to stop the Corolla really quick when I started crossing the road and almost didn't see somebody coming, and they stopped it on a dime. I haven't put many miles on either set of the Duralasts yet but I know the downside is more dust and probably be replacing them a lot more often (not worried about $75 and 1 hour of time every couple of years though). Seems like some people swear by this brand, others say they are crap...

 

I've also tried Wagner Thermoquiet ceramics on the Nissan Pulsar we had. They seemed to do fine but still took more effort than I would like to stop the car, however. I can get a full set of these from Rock Auto for about $43 shipped.

[Zues Marine]

No to all of the above..

 

buy EBC Greenstuff Pads. They will grip tightly forevverrrrrr.

 

and Stainless Steel Brake Lines. They will vastly improve pedal response

 

Simple. ~$200. Ridiculously Effective, long term investment.

[Stevo F]

I've heard a lot of good things about the EBC pads (various colors). Not sure if I want to spend that much on this go-round as I would like to keep my current rotors since they are still in good shape. If I spend the $ for the EBC pads I would assume new rotors should go with them too. I would like to get the stainless steel brake lines, especially since the originals are showing their age. Problem is finding them for Legacy older than 4th gen (including the Autoanything site at the links above (they only sell them for Impreza before 2005).

[Stang70Fastback]

I <3 my Hawk HPS Sport pads.

[mnstrmech]

More important than the type of pad you use is how clean is the caliper brackets?. Caliper pins seized? I don't know how many times i preach about those caliper pins being lubed with quality brake lube.

The other thing i mentioned is how easily does the pads move in the bracket? They should move with very little resistance. Every brake job i do i take the stainless steel brake pad "shim" off the the bracket and clean the rust down, put a little anti-seize on the bracket then either use the new "shims" or clean the old ones up.

Easily movable pads combined with movable caliper pins, your brakes should feel good no matter what pads you use.

[monkeyposeur]

Informative pissing match: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1998265

[Stang70Fastback]

I don't get it. This guy's huge rant is all about how better brakes won't help you brake better and that you should just buy better tires. Okay... what if you already have better tires? THEN it makes perfect sense to upgrade your brakes.

[Zues Marine]

haha thats Nasioc for you...

[mnstrmech]

i skimmed thru it, i think he's an idiot.

[Stevo F]

I can't imagine tires can make that big of a different in a panic stop if your ABS kicks in anyway.

 

Which leads me to mine- I did end up going my brakes over, with stock pads all the way around and new rotors in the front (the back rotors were pretty smooth). I think my braking is improved somewhat and my 16 year old son / driving student who complaining our their lack of responsiveness before agrees they are now more responsive. But no matter how hard I brake, I do not feel ABS kicking in. The ABS light comes on doing it's check during start-up and not again after that. The brakes aren't locking up during heavy braking, but definitely no pulsating in the pedal from ABS (and I know the ABS in my Corolla activates far sooner than this, as a comparison). Are they any other issues specific to the ABS I should be looking at?

[Stang70Fastback]

I don't think you understand how ABS works.

 

ABS (Anti-Lock Braking System) ONLY kicks in if you lock up your tires. The reason it kicks in so early on your Corolla is because your Corolla probably has skinnier and/or crappier tires (or a problem with the ABS system). You never WANT the ABS to kick in and it isn't "supposed" to kick in, as that only means that you are exceeding the level of grip that your tires have.

 

In addition, the ABS system in the Legacy is less intrusive than on some other vehicles, meaning that it will not kick in until you really need it. On some vehicles, it can be overly sensitive, and kick on at even the slightest touch of impending slip, which is not generally a good thing - ABS only lengthens the time it takes to stop a vehicle. It does not shorten that distance. The point of ABS is not to shorten braking distances, but to ensure that you maintain the ability to steer your vehicle.

 

As for your first sentence, tires can make a HUGE difference in panic stop situations, because - as you should now understand from what I have just explained - they offer more grip, meaning you can brake harder before the ABS kicks in. On my car, I've played see-saw with my tires and brakes. When I first inherited the car, it had so-so tires on it. I think upgraded the pads and rotors, which offered more bite and better braking. However, all this did was exceed the grip that the tires could offer, meaning all I really did was make it so that rather than locking the tires up with the pedal all the way to the floor, I could now lock them up before even coming near the floor. Now I have nice, expensive tires on my car, and so I have equalized both parts so that the brakes match the tires - I now lock the tires up with the pedal all the way to the floor, just as the car did initially, however the car is braking much more severely at that point.

[snm95ls]

Yes, tires can make a HUGE difference in braking performance ASSumiong your braking system is capable of utilizing all of the grip offered by the tires.

 

As far as DD pads go, I just put on a set of Hawk Performance Ceramic pads. So far, they are pretty impressive. I am currently on Continental DWS tires.

[Stevo F]

My Legacy actually has a brand new set of 90K mile rated Michelins (probably the best quality of tires I have owned so far) and yes the Corolla has cheaper Uniroyals. Of course I when test drove the Subaru it had pretty much bald, dry rotted tires on it and the ABS didn't kick in either when I torture tested the brakes on my test drive.

 

You may have answered my question with "the ABS system in the Legacy is less intrusive than on some other vehicles, meaning that it will not kick in until you really need it". I guess my concern point is that if the ABS kicks in when the wheels lock, then why doesn't it when pushed hard enough? My '88 Nissan truck (no ABS) will lock the brakes under hard braking which is precisely what that brake design should do when too much brake pressure is applied (tires are so-so- not great). It just seems to me the Subaru ABS should kick in if the brakes are applied hard enough, although I know the tires are a factor also.

 

One other thing is I've only tried the hard braking under dry weather conditions- it all changes in wet/ icy conditions with diminished grip of the tires. The Nissan Frontier I had would have ABS kick in much sooner under these conditions.

 

Maybe just paranoid, but I was wondering if my brakes are acting normal for a Legacy with stock ABS equipped brakes, or is there something malfunctioning?

[snm95ls]

If you are not experiencing any tire lockup while hard braking in the LEgacy, the ABS will not activate.

 

Ideal braking traction is right on the edge of lockup, hence why ABS activates after lockup. The ABS operates by reducing pressure in the braking system just long enough for tire slip to stop, then repeats the process. This is the basic operation of ABS.

[Stang70Fastback]

My Legacy actually has a brand new set of 90K mile rated Michelins (probably the best quality of tires I have owned so far) and yes the Corolla has cheaper Uniroyals. Of course I when test drove the Subaru it had pretty much bald, dry rotted tires on it and the ABS didn't kick in either when I torture tested the brakes on my test drive.

 

Were your tires locking up one or more wheels? (Were you skidding during this torture test when the brakes were applied?)

 

You may have answered my question with "the ABS system in the Legacy is less intrusive than on some other vehicles, meaning that it will not kick in until you really need it". I guess my concern point is that if the ABS kicks in when the wheels lock, then why doesn't it when pushed hard enough?

 

This means one of several things:

 

1. Your ABS system is malfunctioning. In this case, it should be obvious because, as I asked above, you should notice one or more of your tires locking up and skidding under hard braking. I doubt this is the problem, since you have yet to mention that occurring, it that it's unlikely (though not impossible) that you wouldn't have a warning light.

 

2. Your tires are out-performing your brakes. This isn't impossible with a good set of tires. In this case, it is simply a matter of having enough grip that even full braking won't lock the tires. Nothing wrong here - that's GOOD.

 

3. You have an issue with the brake system. Perhaps the fluid is old and has absorbed a lot of moisture, and needs to be flushed. Perhaps the master cylinder is not working properly. Perhaps the booster system has a problem.

 

The long and short of it is, if your car is stopping well, and everything seems to be fine, then don't worry too much. Test it out in the rain one day. You should easily be able to activate the ABS on a wet road, so that will be a good way to ensure it is functioning properly (don't crash!)

 

Also, never start an argument with, "Well my Corolla doesn't..."

That's like starting an argument with, "Well, Dick Cheney said..."

It's a terrible benchmark, lol.

[Stevo F]

Were your tires locking up one or more wheels? (Were you skidding during this torture test when the brakes were applied?)

 

 

 

This means one of several things:

 

1. Your ABS system is malfunctioning. In this case, it should be obvious because, as I asked above, you should notice one or more of your tires locking up and skidding under hard braking. I doubt this is the problem, since you have yet to mention that occurring, it that it's unlikely (though not impossible) that you wouldn't have a warning light.

 

2. Your tires are out-performing your brakes. This isn't impossible with a good set of tires. In this case, it is simply a matter of having enough grip that even full braking won't lock the tires. Nothing wrong here - that's GOOD.

 

3. You have an issue with the brake system. Perhaps the fluid is old and has absorbed a lot of moisture, and needs to be flushed. Perhaps the master cylinder is not working properly. Perhaps the booster system has a problem.

 

The long and short of it is, if your car is stopping well, and everything seems to be fine, then don't worry too much. Test it out in the rain one day. You should easily be able to activate the ABS on a wet road, so that will be a good way to ensure it is functioning properly (don't crash!)

 

Also, never start an argument with, "Well my Corolla doesn't..."

That's like starting an argument with, "Well, Dick Cheney said..."

It's a terrible benchmark, lol.

 

Number 1- Nope, no wheels lock

 

Number 2- Possibly- but ABS didn't activate with previous tires (which were 10 years old and so bad as not being really safe to drive on).

 

Number 3- Maybe the case as brake fluid looks good (not dark), but is of an unknown age. Ultimately would like to replace all of the rubber brake lines and brake fluid. Master cylinder seems good (brakes are firm, not mushy).

 

Also, advice taken. Also if I start quoting Cheney on here, please kick me out of the group LOL

[Stang70Fastback]

Well if the wheels aren't locking, then your ABS system is probably fine. Do it in the wet sometime and see what happens.

 

Does the car seem to stop reasonably? Do the brakes seem excessively mushy? (The pedal on these cars isn't terribly firm, so don't try comparing it to a brand new Audi.) If the car stops fine, then I think it might be more personal preference than anything.

 

If you really, truly had god-awful bald tires on previously and still couldn't lock them up either, then it sounds like you aren't getting full braking force from the system.

[Stevo F]

Yes, I'll have to find a road on a wet day with plenty of runout room and try braking hard then.

 

Actually my personal preference is for a softer feel to the brakes. I think the car stops as well as my son's Honda Accord (which has no ABS). he brake pedal is firm, not mushy.

 

I'm sure I could get some more response from a performance type brake pad, but my budget right now was for the Duralast Gold. I also have them on the Honda & Corolla and they happen to feel more responsive, almost a bit touchy, but I think that is also the nature of different makes of cars with different brake systems.

 

I haven't driven the car more than few miles with the new pads- perhaps they'll respond a bit better after breaking them in a bit more.

[twisty]

One other thing is I've only tried the hard braking under dry weather conditions- it all changes in wet/ icy conditions with diminished grip of the tires.

 

ive slammed the brakes many times in empty parking lots while teaching the kids to drive, and rarely have i had the abs kick in for either my 95 L or 96 GT so far. but, when i got the GT on some good wet concrete, it kicks in well. it seems much less intrusive than my other vehicles, the dodge truck has major issues to the point where i want to disconnect the abs. the ford f150 work truck kicks in when there is a few bumps in the road, but works well for the most part. the civic kicks in when it matters, but isnt too quick to kick in when not really necessary so far.

 

that dodge tho, one time i got cut off on the freeway, had to go from 55 to about 15 mph instantly. the brakes would kick in, release then kick in again repeatedly, but to the point where they would lock up and squeal, release then start over again making the truck buck back and forth violently. scared the hell out of me the first time it happened, but it doesnt happen every time. i have been through that system so many times but have yet to find an actual broken or worn piece to blame it on.

[shadowsports]

I ran EBC GreenStuff pads on my VW's. Didn't care for them. Actually didn't care for their dusting. Performance wise they were good, but my rims were completely coated in 3 days instead of 7 or more now. Just goes to show opinions and experience vary.

[Zues Marine]

yeah even in the snow my abs is intermittent

[Stevo F]

The new brakes seem to be doing well except the back ones now have a high pitched squeal under heavier braking... ugghhh.. I'm guessing it's because I kept the old rotors, I guess I'll look at putting new ones on and see what that does.

[mnstrmech]

The new brakes seem to be doing well except the back ones now have a high pitched squeal under heavier braking... ugghhh.. I'm guessing it's because I kept the old rotors, I guess I'll look at putting new ones on and see what that does.

 

 

Its not the rotors fault for the noise. Its in the pad material. Im a mechanic for a profession, ASE certified in brakes, and i rarely turn or replace solid rear rotors when their in good shape. Even with my own car. Squeaking is actually the pads vibrating at a high frequency, thats why they sell that disc brake anti-squeak spray, it sorta "glues" the pad to the caliper. Also, the really high-end brake lube, like the ceramic purple colored stuff or even the cheaper synthetic stuff (which is green in color from permatex) can be used on the backing of the pad to reduce the chances of squeak. Its been my experience though that once a pad starts sqeaking, replace it and use proper lubricant and all should be good.

[Stevo F]

Thank you for your input. It all started with the new brake pads- I put brake lubricant on the surfaces of the back and edges of the pads where they contact the calipers. Perhaps I did not put enough on- do you recommend the anti-squuek spray also?

[mnstrmech]

If you use the right lube, and you still have noise, its still in the pad, as in too much metallic in the pad material. If you just installed them, i would see if you can have them either warrantied for another set, or try to upgrade to a better set. I personally never go cheap when it comes to my brakes.

As for lube, this is the stuff i use at work

http://imageshack.us/a/img856/6240/vzdm.th.jpg

and you use either spray or lube, not both at the same time. I switch from either one, but i favor the lube over the spray cause you dont have to wait for it to tack up.