DaltonUltra

Actually, you could go higher with the old turbo 3.8 block...

There's a reason Northstar and shortstar motors are so common in junkyards. Unfortunately, they have a relatively short lifespan. 120k and they're ragged out. Plus, the real power potential for the block is fairly low compared to the old 3.8 or the Series 2/3.

If you're worried about lag, there's always the twin-charged set-up. It solves the lag issues, and lets you use a smaller turbo for the same power. The only issue is intercooling, because the supercharger is almost as much of a heat-producer as a turbo.

The usual thing is to use an air-to-water core under the supercharger, but you guys have clearance issues, and it's also not as good as air-to-air for daily driving anyways. There's an under-supercharger plate from Australia that let you run air-to-air, but again with clearance and intake-routing issues.

I occasionally wish my car was quieter. Like when my brother took it to the store today, and I could hear it through the entire apartment in front of ours, and all the down our street...

Of course, then I walk around it while it's idling and listen to that godd### sexy-ass cam lope...lol

And I did undersell the DHP software. You can get the same results as HPTuners, it's just that the interface is a pain in the ass. I tried it out, but I screwed things up and finally flashed it back to stock and sold the adapter. When HPTuners finally cracked the 98 PAU PCM, I was first in line. Had one little hang-up with torque management sending the trans into max-line-pressure, but Dyno Bryan and Todd Allen at Intense figured out what was interfering and got it set straight.

But running a gm computer in a Subaru car. And the cost of the hp tuners or what ever to play with the stock fm ECM completely counts it out.

Megasquirt will make just as much power and just as driveable.

And tuning for hp is way easier than tuning for drivability.

Low end acceleration enrichments and tuning are a pita untill one gets a hang of it

But mine runs as good as stock no lil hiccups

There are zero drivability issues with using a re-flashed PCM. Trust me, my Park Avenue Ultra was the first PA to get the treatment when HPTuners finally cracked the PA. Other than a hard-shift issue that was quickly dealt with, I've never had a single driveability issue. I've even autocrossed it before, and aside from the fact that it's like an elephant tap-dancing, I had no problems. Area under the curve is HUGE. It's not just a drag-racer.

BTW, can MegaSquirt detect if the IAT, MAP, MAF, or several other sensors are reading faulty, and ignore them if they are? The GM PCM will ignore certain sensors if their readings don't reconcile with the O2 readings.

Climber_D, before you spend any money, go to 3800Pro and look through the Tuning/PCM section, and through the motor-swap section. There are people there that know a hell of a lot more about tuning the L67 than anyone here does.

Frankster, yes MegaSquirt is a strong contender. I can't imagine needing something else unless I find a better interface, which would be a challenge. Considering the stock PCM as well. But I don't know much about it yet. Live tuning is a must.

I've known the guys at Intense for almost seven years now, and every time the subject comes up, they say the same thing; There's no point using a stand-alone on an S2/S3 3800. The stock PCM is just better.

Considering that these guys built three overall-world-record 3800s, and the RWD 3800 record holder, I pretty much take their word as gospel. (and yes, that means the RWD 3800 record holder is slower than the FWD 3800 record holder...)

In fact, I don't think any of the Top 25 fastest 3800s is using anything other than the stock PCM and ignition, outside of adding a timing commander and reflashing with HPTuners. (Or DHP, but their software is a complete kludge, and neither Intense nor ZZP will touch them.)

Sorry for the double-post.

well i say its the cam more than the heads . i'm making 360 hp on 5 lbs boost !

the cool thing about turbo cars as the boost increases the density of the air just gets higher, and not air flow speed. mine will make pretty darn near 600 hp on 21 psi. on stock heads.

That's with a much different motor from the Series 2, though, Frank_ster. The S2 L67 heads are very restrictive, and also suffer from having rough castings. The ports are usually poorly matched to the LIM ports. Port-matching and polishing can make a HUGE difference in air flow and in air-charge temperatures. As well, if you stay with the supercharger, port-matching the supercharger throat to the throttle-body, and polishing the throat reduces hot-spots, especially by reshaping the area around the bypass valve, and the outlet into the LIM.

Also, the Stage 3 heads have modified the spring-perches to allow for higher lifts, such as using 1.6:1 roller rockers with the Stage 3 cam. Normal heads would have clearance issues with that combination.

I'll try to find some pictures of some porting jobs from PontiacBonnevilleClub.com and post them up later tonight.

I'm officially 100% decided on this path, 3800 Series II engine baby!!! Been reading a lot about it...

.....Going to sell all my extra EJ25 stuff that's taking up space and hogging capital

If I might suggest signing up over at http://www.3800Pro.com? They have a section specifically for RWD engine swaps. They've been a great help with modifying my Park Avenue.

For parts:

http://www.intense-racing.com

http://www.zzperformance.com

As for the build: If you're going for 400-500hp, you're going to want to get some of Intense's forged pistons, with the matching rods. That's going to mean having the crank re-balanced. You're going to have to either go with Stage3 heads, or do your own porting. For that kind of power, I'd recommend going to a turbo with the Intense Stage 3 turbo cam. Don't bother thinking about twins, there's no benefit to be had at that power level.

Finally, I'd either see if the 4L60E with the 60*V6 bell housing will fit in the Subaru, or the T56 if you want a stick. The Subaru trans may run into problems when you start feeding 700+ ft-lbs through it, as you could be at 600hp with a Series2.

For all the smaller details, between this place and 3800Pro, you should be able to work out any problems fairly easily.

Zzperformance.com

ZZP makes good parts, but their customer service has been a major problem for a lot of people over the years. Not to mention the owner has shown some pretty poor behavior on a few forums towards his rival, http://www.intense-racing.com

Personally, I recommend Intense over ZZP, except that they don't offer an actual turbo header or kit, and they don't have an intercooler plate at the moment. Aside from that, I recommend their parts over ZZP, especially their transmission parts, since Intense was involved with GMPP in designing the hardened input shaft and other parts for the 4T65E-HD for GM's EcoTec racing programs, as well as GM's 200mph FWD Bonneville Salt Lake car.

The bigger advantage to going with Intense is the customer service. They've always responded promptly, and been good about dealing with warranty and install issues. The company recently changed hands, but the new owner has the same commitment to quality and customer service that the old owner did.

very hard to make the 5mt into a rwd/ 4wd ..

 

maybe the 6 speed dccd would be possible but i would have to take one apart.

 

ls series ? you mean like the new small blocks from chevy ? there the same size width and height wise, but about 5 inches longer do to the 2 extra cylinders. meaning the front pulley would be up against your front bumper if you want to keep the factory awd

Well, there is one trick you could use to knock several inches off the total length: The accessories for the LS4 in the W-body will fit on the LS1, LS2, and LS6, and probably onto most of the rest of the LSx series. The LS4 accessories had to be shortened toward the block to get the V8 into an engine bay that was a little tight for the L67. A couple of nutters used this to jam an LS6 into the front of a 97-03 Grand Prix a few years ago.

same bell housing !

 

i think mine is a LG3

 

mine has the factory hydraulic roller cam

 

yes a 3800 series 2 also has 1" shorter rods " boo"

 

my rods fit side by side with big block chev rods with the exception of the pin dia is smaller and mine are a lot beefier.

Actually, the LG3 was the N/A before the first gen of 3800. If yours is a factory turbo engine, it has to be the LD5 or LC6(Cali emissions version of the turbo motor)

The nice part about those shorter rods on the Series 2 is that we use LSx hydraulic lifters. Makes that part a lot cheaper. Either way, both valve-trains are tough as nails. I've never seen a top-end failure on a GM 3.8 or 3800 that didn't have massive damage somewhere else. The big weakness on the Series 2 is the intake gaskets, which get eaten away by DexCool when it goes acidic. After that, Dex gets in the oil and turns into hideous brown milkshake crap. Aside from that, the only problem for modders is the soft pistons. Full hot-forged crank and rods, and they use soft aluminum pistons. Oi...

I'm on MS1 in my car as a full stand alone. There is nothing left of my stock harness or ECU left.

It's interesting to me that you've gone that far. Are Subaru ECUs really that hard to tune? I'm used to the GM PCM, which is easy to program with the HPTuners software. In fact, it's generally agreed that the stock PCM on the Series2 cars is better than a stand-alone. Even the 3800 record-holders are using reflashed PCMs with stock ignitions, aside from a timing commander and better wires/plugs.

BTW, one more little point. I see the engine Frank-Ster used being called a 3800 a lot. It's actually not. It's a GM 3.8, but not a 3800. The 3800 name didn't start until 1988 with the LN3. What Frank-Ster is using is an LD5, the generation of motor prior the the 3800. The differences are huge, including the addition of a balance shaft, a new crank-trigger ignition, different bore-spacing, different bell housing bolt pattern, etc...

uh .. whats the correction ?

ah, sorry, I should have quoted. Someone stated that the Series2 L67 produced 240hp and 340ft/lbs instead of the actually 240/280. Just some mis-stated numbers, NBD.

Had to log in and comment: This is a pretty cool build. The only other one I've seen to rival it is the drifter who installed a Series1 L67 in his 240SX.

One quick correction, though: The Series2 N/A (L36) makes 205hp/230hp. The S2 L67 with the supercharger makes 240hp/280ft-lbs. The thing that makes these engines great, though, isn't the peak numbers. It's the fact that the torque peaks low, and the curve is as flat as Nebraska.

My 98 Park Avenue Ultra, which weighs in at a bit over 3900lbs, runs the 1/4 in 13.8. It's a lot heavier than the Regal or Gran Prix, of course, and the suspension is horrible for drag racing... I also went way too high with my torque converter and lost a bunch of the peak torque. Even so, with a cam, rockers, headers, and a mild pulley on a later-gen supercharger, it still makes 268whp, and over 340wft/lbs. If I put an intercooler plate in it, I'd pretty easily gain another 20hp and 30ft/lbs even before I pulley down. Keep in mind, this is with un-touched heads. The Series2 heads are horribly rough inside, and some simple porting will yield big results.