Pro-drive EBCS - w or w/o pill?

I have the Pro-drive EBCS installed on my car. When I installed it I took out the OEM restrictor pill. Since then I have tried (along with MickeyD2005) to tune my boost properly. No matter what we did, (changed the integral slope, changed the proportional) the engine would overboost just after hitting target boost. I was able to make it better, but not get rid of it. It was actually quite frustrating.

 

Right now I am on my winter gas pump tune, and am using WG spring only (0% WGDC). I logged the boost in this configuration and noticed it seemed to spike as well, showing a mechanical problem that could not be tuned out. I recently had the time to put the restrictor pill back in and re-log it. I thought the results were interesting and wanted to share.

 

-The darker line is w/o a restrictor pill 3rd gear (I had since adjusted the WG actuator rod, I can't find the logs showing how it reacted set to a lower psi, but the bump was the same)

-Blue & Purple lines are 3rd and 4th gear with the restrictor pill

 

 

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg194/littlebluegt/boostspike.jpg

 

 

 

While I had no troubles at all reaching and holding target boost (even if it was well over 20 psi) w/o a restrictor pill, I feel that I will better be able to control it now.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Happy tuning!

Actually, when we tuned your boost, we could control overboosting, the problem was that the boost would dip after peak. Like a time delay.

 

That dip in the dark line at 3850 rpm is what I'm talking about. You see it even with 0% WGDC.

Yeah, that is what mine looks like without the pill. My tuner says it is boost creep and wants me to port my wastegate area. I am using the Perrin BCS having one port going to the compressor housing and the other port going to the WG actuator. You think I should try to put a "pill" inline? If so, where did you put it? On the wastegate actuator side or the compressor housing side?

Are you sure it isn't a faulty solenoid? It seems though that bump is on each pull.

Yeah, that is what mine looks like without the pill. My tuner says it is boost creep and wants me to port my wastegate area. I am using the Perrin BCS having one port going to the compressor housing and the other port going to the WG actuator. You think I should try to put a "pill" inline? If so, where did you put it? On the wastegate actuator side or the compressor housing side?

 

My pill is between the comp housing and the EBCS. Just like OEM IIRC.

Are you sure it isn't a faulty solenoid? It seems though that bump is on each pull.

 

What would be wrong with it?

 

It holds boost fine, are you thinking that it doesn't re-open fast enough?

 

 

FWIW my logs are very consistent and repeatable. I will see how it works when I get to tuning my boost again soon. (for now it is too cold, and I like the better traction that a slower spool gets me.)

How is the EBCS setup?

Actually, when we tuned your boost, we could control overboosting, the problem was that the boost would dip after peak. Like a time delay.

 

That dip in the dark line at 3850 rpm is what I'm talking about. You see it even with 0% WGDC.

 

I will agree, kinda.

 

IFAIR it would always overboost by at least 1 or 1.5 psi. Then when I would to a transitional log (say 4500 rpm in third, then WOT) it would overboost again by about 1 to 1.5 psi. I guess we will see how much it overshoots now.

How is the EBCS setup?

 

It is not T-eed like OEM

 

It is run like a normal 3 port set-up.

 

-comp to EBCS

-EBCS to WG actuator

-EBCS back to inlet

As an interrupt or blocking?

 

reverse the setup.

 

Then again I run a really small pill but I dont over boost

rc, he's not overboosting. It's dipping.

 

I'm not convinced that it's not a mechanical problem associated with overtightening the WG actuator. The wastegate door seems like it gets stuck in two positions (open and close) rather than have an infinite number of open positions like it should have.

 

IIRC, when you loosened the actuator so that boost tapered to 10 psi at redline, the dip almost disappeared.

 

In the first chart that you posted here, it looks like the brown line has a much higher wg actuator spring pressure. Is the arm at the same location? I don't see why adding a pill would reduce the boost.

 

On another person's setup, where the spring pressure was setup to 10 psi at redline, I didn't see this dipping.

Where's SeeeeYa?

 

I'ld like to see his boost curves with WGDC = 0%. IIRC he's using a Prodrive solenoid and has a AVO380 and I believe he set his wastegate arm so that it hits 10 or 11 psi at redline.

rc, he's not overboosting. It's dipping.

.

Running it outside the efficiency range

Interestingly, we tuned an 06 WRX a couple of weeks ago with an ATP 3076R and a Prodrive solenoid. It displayed very much the same kind of behavior. No matter what we did with the turbo dynamics and WGDC the boost would overshoot the target and become very hard to control. At first we thought there was something wrong with the wastegate port on the turbo, but I had my old Hallman MBC lying around so we slapped it on. Result: rock steady boost. We even had the customer come back to see if the Prodrive could be made to work, be even after a couple of hours of road tuning we ended up with superior results with the MBC so it went back on.

 

We have done plenty of cars with Prodrive solenoids and the vast majority work out great. A few have been very stubborn. I personally was banging my head against a wall for couple hours after we had a car which we had previously tuned come back in with just the addition of a Prodrive BCS to retune for. I got it working ok, and it did spool faster than on the factory bleed solenoid, but I could not get rid of the dip after the initial peak as the turbo came up on boost. Still haven't quite figured out if it is just some kind of odd interaction with the Prodrive and certain cars or if there are some wonky Prodrive BCS's out there.

 

I have heard of some Evo tuners putting a pill between the pressure source and a 3 port solenoid and that it helps to steady the boost. Is that where you put the pill on your car LBGT? Is so, perhaps we can pull a page from their book and use that trick in our cars as well.

Running it outside the efficiency range

 

Okay.

 

I define overboosting as exceeding the boost target... and I don't disagree that the boost target was set too high (not my decision).

 

I have heard of some Evo tuners putting a pill between the pressure source and a 3 port solenoid and that it helps to steady the boost. Is that where you put the pill on your car LBGT? Is so, perhaps we can pull a page from their book and use that trick in our cars as well.

 

Boostjunkie, he said that is where he put the pill. Between the compressor housing and the EBCS.

 

My setup goes like this -

 

Port 1 = WG ACtuator

Port 3 = Compressor Housing

Port 2 = Open

 

What size pill should I try? Where do I get this pill from? I think I still have the factory line somewhere...do you think I should just put that between the comp housing and the BCS?

 

My setup does not dip, it just hits target boost and then keeps climbing. Even with 0% WG according to my tuner. He wants me to take my turbo off and port the WG port. It is a DB zilla and should have been ported from DB.

 

Thanks for your help.

Boostjunkie, he said that is where he put the pill. Between the compressor housing and the EBCS.

 

My setup goes like this -

 

Port 1 = WG ACtuator

Port 3 = Compressor Housing

Port 2 = Open

 

What size pill should I try? Where do I get this pill from? I think I still have the factory line somewhere...do you think I should just put that between the comp housing and the BCS?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Between the comp housing and the BCS is where I'm guessing would be the best place for. Since you have the pill from your stock boost tee, that would be a convenience piece to recycle and try out. I'd trim down the max WGDC a bit beforehand.

I put mine between the turbo and the BCS. Mig tips FTW!

rc, he's not overboosting. It's dipping.

 

I'm not convinced that it's not a mechanical problem associated with overtightening the WG actuator. The wastegate door seems like it gets stuck in two positions (open and close) rather than have an infinite number of open positions like it should have.

 

IIRC, when you loosened the actuator so that boost tapered to 10 psi at redline, the dip almost disappeared.

 

In the first chart that you posted here, it looks like the brown line has a much higher wg actuator spring pressure. Is the arm at the same location? I don't see why adding a pill would reduce the boost.

 

On another person's setup, where the spring pressure was setup to 10 psi at redline, I didn't see this dipping.

 

the WG actuator probably needs shimming to prevent binding.

 

LBGT, is the push rod square with the actuator in the closed position?

BBB, do you have a boost plot with WGDC = 0?

BBB, do you have a boost plot with WGDC = 0?

 

 

I'll see if I have one from my earlier runs. If I recall correctly the boost climbs to ~ 12 psi then gradually tapers to 11.5 by redline. I have a special order actuator which was setup for low mechanical boost so my diaphragm to flapper door area ratio is much larger than LBGTs

Between the comp housing and the BCS is where I'm guessing would be the best place for. Since you have the pill from your stock boost tee, that would be a convenience piece to recycle and try out. I'd trim down the max WGDC a bit beforehand.

 

 

The WGDC is at 0 in the upper RPM range. I can't change anything on my tune since I am using an AP. My tuner would have to change it. Do you think it would be safe for me to try the pill and watch the boost gauge?

Integroid are you using a 15 psi actuator?

Integroid are you using a 15 psi actuator?

 

No, it is the standard 11psi actuator from DB.

Unfortunately, it will still be a few days before I can add anything of much value here. My AVO380 tuning was still unfolding when the transmission failed and ended progress.

 

However, LBGT brings an important perspective to the table. Too bad WE DON'T HAVE A TUNING FORUM TO UNFOLD IT IN but I also found that boost didn't act exactly like I thought it would. In the months prior to my turbo install I had experimented at length with different pill sizes on the stock BCS setup. One reason I did this was to learn how the boost control system worked. Another reason was I wasn't happy with the high WGDC it took to achieve my target boost. Smaller pills got my WGDC down, but produced curves with a decided dip just after spoolup.

 

Another level of understanding came when I installed the Prodrive BCS on the stock setup, which worked amazingly well. At that point I figured tuning the new turbo would be a set-it-and-forget-it snap. Didn't work out that way.

 

When I had the WGDC where the boost was controlled best (remember, this was still a work in progress) I was surprised to see that my WGDC map looked very similar to my WGDC map for the VF40 with a SMALL PILL..... up until higher RPMs (another issue). That is, I had asked for rapid boost early and had to really dip the WGDC just after spool in order to prevent overboosting, then ramp it back up almost immediately. Testing my WG actuator with a pressure source prior to installation saw it set at 15psi as billed.

 

On the top end I had to once again lower WGDC significantly to bring boost under control or it wanted to run 20psi when I wanted 18. I'd inspected the turbo before installing it and was pleased to find its WG area shaped like I have come to understand it should be. On the other hand it almost seemed like I had some creep in first gear, although thereafter it wasn't an issue.

 

Theoretically, adding a pill, although a larger orificed one than stock I'd guess, should help with that post spool overshoot. However, although I was still puzzled by how the shape of the WGDC curve mimicked my small pill experimental one, my boost was working acceptably well in all gears. But like I said, based on all that came before the AVO I'd expected the WGDC to be much flatter that it was. When I can get back to finishing tuning I will, based on this thread, experiment with pills again.

 

Based on all this it does appear that a pill of some value could enable a finer resolution of boost control in that region where it goes from mechanical control to ECU/BCS control.