AP front BBK and comparo

Last week I installed my AP BBK that I got from Rallitek. I am in luv.

 

From my research I believe that the AP kit is one of the best street/DD brake kits that be gotten. It is not cheap though.

 

-It is a 330 x 28 mm rotor. It is slotted and cross-drilled.

-Comes with Ferrodo DS2500 street pads

-includes front SS brake lines c/w rubber covers for the lines to protect against any rubbing

 

OEM caliper (caliper, bracket, pads, shims) weighs: 16 lbs

AP caliper (caliper, bracket, pads) weighs: 9 lbs

 

OEM rotor weighs: 21.6 lbs

AP 2 piece rotor weighs: 18.6 lbs

***I have my doubts that this is actually an AP rotor (have yet to confirm) I think it may be a DBS 2 piece rotor***

iON 2 piece rotor weighs: 14 lbs (check out the pics to see the diff)

 

You will notice that the iON rotor uses a slightly different aluminum hat. The AP kit that I have will fit under OEM 17s w/o any spacer. The iON kit comes with and needs a 3mm spacer to work with OEM 17s. The iON rotor will (I am told) bolt up the AP aluminum hat, so in the future if I want to upgrade to iONs rotors (doesn't have to x-drilled) they should fit.

 

I for one am very curious if the lighter iON rotors can take as much punishment as the heavier rotors I have, but I doubt I will have any first hand experience for at least a year.

Pics

 

You can see the iON rotor (KVR rotor really) is the X-drilled one, and you should be able to see why it is lighter. Also notice the diff in aluminum hats changing the clearance of the whole package.

Comparison from Bobcat pads/ SS lines/ fluid to AP BBK.

 

I wanted to compare the Bobcat pads that I had on stock rotors (w/ SS lines and fluid) to the AP BBK.

 

I went out on a drive (controlled environment) and did as many immediately successive stops from 6500 rpm in third gear, slowing to 3000 rpms, then WOT back to 6500 rpms again. This was very very taxing on the brakes, and do not really recommend doing it, unless you are slightly psychotic like me.

 

The bobcats held up for 6 stops, then started to go downhill. After 7 stops there was a slight difference in pedal feel. 8 stops was a noticeable difference. 9 stops and you could tell they were past the point where they were designed to be used.

 

I took pics of the OEM rear rotors (also with bobcats) as a comparison to the front rotors. The rears did not get near as hot, and the pads held up just fine (showing that upgraded thermal capacity in the rear does not seem to be needed at this point).

 

The front rotors showed severe signs of pad overheating, the pics don't do it justice, but suffice it to say that if I wish to use the front rotors again I will have to resurface them.

 

Once my new pads are bedded and the rotors are sufficiently heat soaked I will repeat this same test with the AP brakes and see how they stand up.

suscribe for results

Here are some install pics for those of you interested in the bling factor.

 

I opted for the Black calipers on black aluminum hats.

 

Red calipers are available.

 

With iON's kit other colors are available for those who care.

 

The whole kit bolted up very easily.

 

I re-used my old SS brake lines, but covered it in the kit's brake line protector (not sure what to call it)

 

I was able to keep the old splash shield, but had to gently bend it about 5mm out of the way for proper fitment.

 

 

 

Stand-by for better pics of them installed when I actually clean my wheels.

Why cross drilled? It's lame. Unless it's Porsche like cast "cross drilled".

Why cross drilled? It's lame. Unless it's Porsche like cast "cross drilled".

 

Agreed.

 

I just talked to Stillen Brake Pros, the ones that sold this kit to Rallitek, and the guy there said these are DBA 5000 series rotors.

 

Event though they are X-drilled they still stand up very well and they have not had problems with them cracking.

 

I know all about cracking as I have personally cracked 3 sets of X-drilled replacement rotors on my Maxima, but these rotors are in a different league. The last set of rotors I got for my Maxima were X-drilled Stillen ones and they never cracked onme.

 

My preference would have been slotted only, but I am not worried. For replacements I will get slotted only, but the price I got this whole kit for meant I couldn't refuse.

Driving impressions.

 

 

10 lb weight saving per side! Not bad eh? This could go up to 14 lbs weight saving per side if I got replacement iON rotors. Is the weight difference noticeable? Yes it is, but not as much as I was hoping for. Suspension reacts marginally quicker to bumps and uneven pavement. Difference in acceleration is not enough to notice.

Brake feel is absolutely fantastic! OEM brake feel sucked. Better pads and fluid and SS lines made a very noticeable improvement, but this upgrade made all the difference in the world, more difference again then the first brake upgrade. Another local LGTer came by for a test-drive on Saturday, he has SS-Ms on OEM rotors (I think) in his car, he also noticed a huge difference in brake feel. It is not that the brakes are more sensitive (mu is about the same), it just feels like they start working immediately. The OEM system must have a tremendous amount of flex in it, because these things feel like they have none. With the OEM brakes you feel like you have to pre-load the system. Right now it feels like my foot is directly pressing on the rotor, I can't really describe how happy I am with the feel, but brake modulation is gonna be much easier now.

 

Thumbs up for AP calipers.

I dunno why ppl diss stock brakes so much (well, except pads). While BBKs are cool I don't think having brakes that work like on/off button is that great...

I dunno why ppl diss stock brakes so much (well, except pads). While BBKs are cool I don't think having brakes that work like on/off button is that great...

 

Did you even read the last post?

 

My brakes are nowhere near an on/off switch.

 

I most definitely have better brake feel and better brake modulation. The OEM system has a huge amount of flex in it, which leads to worse feel. Just because you have less flex does not mean you have turned your brakes into an on/off switch.

 

Worse brake modulation results from an increasing in brake pad friction co. These have about the same co-efficient as the Bobcat pads that they replaced.

 

I can feel exactly what the brakes are doing now, it transmits much better through the pedal.

 

Now the OEM brakes with better pads are just fine. The have more then enough stopping power (I can easily lock up the Bobcats on OEM rotors at 150+mph) but that is not the whole story.

 

OEM calipers have two 42.8mm pistons. These AP calipers have two pistons, one is 41.3 the other is 38.1. So they (pads being equal) actually have less clamping force then the OEM ones. Take into account the small increase in rotor diameter (that brings back some torque) and you still end up with a small loss in overall brake power. That means that for a given pressure there will actually be less brake torque generated. That means better modulation.

 

The big difference is you don't need to use up all of the OEM flex before you start to feel what is going on.

 

You really need to drive it to appreciate the difference.

Ok, fair enough...

I dunno why ppl diss stock brakes so much (well, except pads). While BBKs are cool I don't think having brakes that work like on/off button is that great...

 

why? because stock calipers have response like this:

|..........bite..|

 

while BBK's have response like this:

|.bite...........|

 

replacing pads/fluids/lines on the stock setup nets you this:

|......bite......|

 

Having to get 50% into pedal travel before bite isn't a reassuring feeling. Trust me when I say that that was my only complaint about the stock GT setup. I was happy other than that, but it was hard to adjust to.

I guess it's individual thing or there is some variation between cars. I have no complaints with SSM pads and now DBA 4000 rotors (latter added just for fun).

 

I just drove a LGT with Brembos all around and while they are surefooted, they were bit too touchy for my liking.

 

EDIT: I am not saying stockers are better than BBKs. I am saying they are totally ok yet people diss them like RE92s...

perhaps because you've gotten used to the stock setup. problem is, I had a MINI in the garage to compare....BMW knows brake feel. No matter what I did to the stock LGT brakes, they paled in comparison.

Good comparison PGT.

 

unclemat: Not sure what pads the Brembos had in them, but many guys that track their STIs sell their Brembos for AP calipers or something else.

 

Stiffer calipers are like stiffer body structures. Always a good thing! Always.

 

 

 

 

You are right though about people dissing the OEM set-up. Stock calipers with pads lines and fluid are more then adequate for stopping the car. But for better everything, a properly set-up BBK with proper pads for the occasion trumps it.........at a considerable cost.

 

The one good thing about this better feel is that I should be able to threshold brake much better on ice in the winter.

why? because stock calipers have response like this:

|..........bite..|

 

while BBK's have response like this:

|.bite...........|

 

replacing pads/fluids/lines on the stock setup nets you this:

|......bite......|

 

Having to get 50% into pedal travel before bite isn't a reassuring feeling. Trust me when I say that that was my only complaint about the stock GT setup. I was happy other than that, but it was hard to adjust to.

 

This post bites.

Think the Legacy brakes suck? There have been a few times where I have had to lean pretty hard on the Outback brakes and only just had enough stopping power.

If the OB brakes are the same as the the 2.5i, then yes they suck, but they actually have better feel then the LGT brakes. Less overall stopping power, and less heat capacity, but better feel.

Looks good!

 

Now get something in the back to match. And I was able to get a little smoke in the rear during my BBK bedding session

From what I observed, it is not only stock pads that suck but the rotor as well. There seems to be a lot of forum members that complain about warped rotors and rotor deposits that cause brake shake. Maybe the stock rotor material sucks too I already did pads, lines and fluids (and tires and suspension) and I think there is vast improvement over stock. However there is still much room for improvement. Will try DBA slotted next.

Looks good!

 

Now get something in the back to match. And I was able to get a little smoke in the rear during my BBK bedding session

 

 

Possibly in the works.

 

iON may have a set-up that uses OEM sized rear rotors and AP calipers. I may upgrade one at a time, not sure really, need to see how my bias is.

 

What's a few thousand more dollars anyways?

From what I observed, it is not only stock pads that suck but the rotor as well. There seems to be a lot of forum members that complain about warped rotors and rotor deposits that cause brake shake. Maybe the stock rotor material sucks too I already did pads, lines and fluids (and tires and suspension) and I think there is vast improvement over stock. However there is still much room for improvement. Will try DBA slotted next.

 

 

My stock rotors worked fine.

 

FWIW they still had no vibration when I was beating on them and melting the Bobcat pads. I did have vibration a few times earlier when I was braking very hard consecutively, but I took the rotors off and cleaned them with an emery cloth and all was OK.

What's a few thousand more dollars anyways?

Exactly

Have you driven with the AP calipers and the iON(KVR rotors)?

 

I'm asking because KVR is local to me and can sell an AP BBK with their 2 piece rotors and "Carbor Fiber" pads at very competitive price to the Rallitek AP BBK package with no duty.

 

I'm guessing the DBA rotors probably handle repeated braking better then the KVR.....

Have you driven with the AP calipers and the iON(KVR rotors)?

 

I'm asking because KVR is local to me and can sell an AP BBK with their 2 piece rotors and "Carbor Fiber" pads at very competitive price to the Rallitek AP BBK package with no duty.

 

I'm guessing the DBA rotors probably handle repeated braking better then the KVR.....

 

 

That is a very good question

 

A local spec-B owner had the iON/KVR rotors that I took pics of and these will be installed in the next week or so. I hope to drive on them soon.

 

I cannot say if the DBA or the KVR will handle the heat better, it is possible that the larger space for venting will cool better, but I kinda doubt it. Chris Bernal (the resident expert at Brake-pros has been very helpful for me, and he believes the larger venting space is only a benefit if one has brake ducting, which I highly doubt you have.

 

Other info for you:

 

I found out yesterday that my kit did not come with the Ferrodo DS2500 pads, but all of the brake-pro AP stuff now comes with the Mintec Motorsport Xtreme pads (not to be confused with the Mintec Xtreme pads). These pads work great in the cold and apparently work right up to 1300F!!!!!!!!!!! That would mean I can daily drive on these things and still take it to the track. They are new and I have not been able to find any objective reviews on them, so I will have to wait till I get a chance to beat on them a bit to say. I owned KVR's "carbon fiber" pads on my Maxima (maybe they are different now) and they were horrible, just horrible. I drove the car semi hard and killed them just like that (we are talking literally melted in about 10 mins of freeway fun), put the OEM Nisan ones in and they were significantly better, so much for "high performance". Then KVR sent me a new set, same thing. I then went with Stillen metal matrix pads and found them much better.

 

If these pads are as good as they say they are then that may weigh into your decision.

 

FWIW Ralitek might be able to cut you a bit of a deal, but not paying US shipping and brokerage fees saves a lot.

 

Also remember that the brake-pros kit (or Rallitek kit) come with an aluminum hat that does not need a spacer for OEM 17s, not sure of the spoke clearance on your OEM 18s. With either kit you can mix or match the rotors, so if you buy one and find you want different rotors, they will bolt right up.

 

Whatever your decision (aluminum hat differences, pad choice, etc) the AP calipers are fantastic and you cannot go wrong with that choice.

I took them out and did 7 consecutive full effort slow-downs. I put the car in third gear (322 whp) and went from 3000 rpm to 7000 rpm, then full brakes.

 

No fade at all, in fact they were (as far as I could tell) 100% consistent during that time.

 

Next time I will try 9 consecutive slow downs. (the point were the Bobcats were toast)